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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Since you have never been to Sub Saharan Africa and have no knowledge of the people who live there, how could you possibly make an informed choice?

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ORIGINAL: Aylee

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ORIGINAL: Brain

I am not blaming Africans for slavery. This story in the New York Times is just a sneaky way for white people to avoid taking responsibility for their despicable behavior.

You are an idiot. 

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Slavery in the US, as well as in Africa, was legal. And the article directly states, as i and others have pointed out that africa did sell their own into slavery.

Now, what part of that is incorrect.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Since you have never been to Sub Saharan Africa and have no knowledge of the people who live there, how could you possibly make an informed choice?

Experience is not the only way to obtain information.

I've never been raped or crucified either but if I said there's no way in hell I want to try it I doubt you'd say I'm not informed enough to make that decision.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: Silence8

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

What is and is not considered moral varies from time to time as well as place to place, and feeds into the law which thereby changes from time to time and place to place to reflect its environment and the needs perceived of those determining it.

E

I'm not arguing necessarily for sending all black Americans some check in the mail -- though it wouldn't be all that hard, and it would be a GREAT economic stimulus, because a lot of that money would be spent immediately out of need, and the multiplier effect would make economists do a little dance. Wait, why I am not arguing that? Errr.... um... I've lost my train of thought.

What was amazing about the NYT article, in my everlasting study of ideology, is that, while ideology is usually a false question, the NYT contains both a false question and a false answer!!!!!!!!!

Okay, let's delineate. The false question: Are reparations justified? The false answer: No, because Africans also enslaved people. Then there's Tazzy's false answer B: No, because slavery was legal.

The real question motivating the false one: is economic inequality along the lines of race a result of historical inequality? The real answer: Most definitely yes. The real solution: more tax cuts to or credit initiatives for the economically disadvantaged, a real enforcement of white-collar crime, equalizing sentences, defunding the prison industry, no more bailouts to rich bankers, no more socialism for the rich, less an emphasis on patronizing sadomasochistic charity practices that are ultimately tax-deductible and a cover for organized crime, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

You cannot penalize someone today for doing what is legal until tomorrow. Now, if this was still the 60's, i would whole heartedly agree that there is a disparity among the races. As much as you may wish to argue there is no even playing field... and there isnt one unless you can afford one, which many white people cannot anymore, let alone blacks, hispanics, ect ect ect... its as even as its going to get. Money levels any playing field. Its the only color that matters. Some get lucky achieving that "race", others work hard to do so. Its there, available to any who desire it and work hard enough to achieve it. If someone doesnt, they only have themselves to blame.

Now, if you feel so in need to pay someone for the guilt you feel in the slavery issue, tell me, how would you go about paying them? How much? for how long? Would is stop with this race? Who else would you owe?

See, i feel no guilt over the slavery issue. I have none to feel. I never owned a slave, neither did any in my family tree. This guilt trip doesnt work. But, since you feel so guilty by the association of slavery in the US, cmail me on the other side and i will send you my address for you to send me a check as well.

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Now, more importantly, you really got a pecker?

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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

To Viotets assertion that the Africans involved only kept slaves for a couple of days so they should get a pass...Wow... really... wow!

That chattel slavery is STILL alive and well on the continent of Africa and the profits and players in the trade can still directly trace their business back over 500 years probably doesn't matter either.

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Lets remember...

White Americans put an END to chattel slavery in the United States. That's right... WHITE people ended it. Shed a lot of blood in an effort to give the government of the United States the ability to end it too.

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Not miffed at all Violet....and I apologise if that is what you took from that.
Yes I think it is an oversimplification...to the nth degree,almost tot the point of trivializing the whole conversation....on second thought perhaps I was a little miffed last night.
This really isn't an issue that can be so blithly boiled down to such a trivial analogy.The actual idea of reparations has historicl precedence,therefor it can not be easily dismissed...on the other hand as you said in your first(I think) post the wrong was so huge and had such financial ramifications(much like the Native American's claim...we can't very well give back the land can we?)that it is unworkable in its scope.

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ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149

And there are a great many rich, white privileged people that pump gobs of money into poor under privileged minority communities.

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ORIGINAL:Thomsonx
Really????how many????

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Do they do it for free or do they get something back like tax breaks?

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ORIGINAL: VioletGray

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Now, more importantly, you really got a pecker?

Sorry Shore, I missed this question last time LoL

...yeah.

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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

To Viotets assertion that the Africans involved only kept slaves for a couple of days so they should get a pass...Wow... really... wow!

That chattel slavery is STILL alive and well on the continent of Africa and the profits and players in the trade can still directly trace their business back over 500 years probably doesn't matter either.

Lets remember...

White Americans put an END to chattel slavery in the United States. That's right... WHITE people ended it. Shed a lot of blood in an effort to give the government of the United States the ability to end it too.

Should the familes of white and black soliders who lost their lives in Army of the United States of America between 1861 and 1865 ensuring their government would be able to take measures ending slavery forever, get reparations too?

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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

You know domiguy... you can take your faux white guilt and your assumptions and stick them.

I'll quote Dr. Walter Williams on the issue:

Reparations advocates make the foolish unchallenged pronouncement that the United States became rich on the backs of free black labor. That's utter nonsense. Slavery has never had a very good record of producing wealth. Think about it. Slavery was all over the South. Buying into the reparations nonsense, you'd have to conclude that the antebellum South was rich and the slave-starved North was poor.

The truth of the matter is just the opposite. In fact, the poorest states and regions of our country were places where slavery flourished: Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia while the richest states and regions were those where slavery was absent: Pennsylvania, New York and Massachusetts

In fact, the Good Doctor issued a pardon to the white race so they have that in the bank.

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/gift.html

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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Slavery was all over the South. Buying into the reparations nonsense, you'd have to conclude that the antebellum South was rich and the slave-starved North was poor.

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Reperations are a joke. But to try and downplay the history of slavery and minimize our own part in this tragedy because some Afrikans engaged in the trade of slaves is just idiotic.

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ORIGINAL: VioletGray




I'm not sure what your point is here?  That white people don't suck? I'm all for judging people on their individual merits, so sure.  Like I said I'm not sure what you're driving at here, but just in case it matters, whites also began slavery in America.  Sooooo yeah. Please enlighten me.

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I'm pretty sure that at least someone in the government has apologised to descendants of slaves, and that is going to be the most anyone is going to get.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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Reperations are a joke. But to try and downplay the history of slavery and minimize our own part in this tragedy because some Afrikans engaged in the trade of slaves is just idiotic.

I can agree with both statements. It was seriously distressing to me to read descriptions of the Middle Passage, the brutality of slavery on farms and plantations, the desperate attempts to escape or rebel, the nonsense of the South's Lost Cause, the failure of reconstruction, the prison farms, chain gangs, night rider terror and lynchings that followed after Appomattox, and the Jim Crow laws that remained in force well through the 1950s.

I don't doubt this "nation conceived in liberty" carries a terrible, dark stain on it's soul. And I am damn proud we elected an African-American as President. It was time.

But what value do you place on human lives lost in the Black Holocaust? Are we talking 1860 dollars or 1980 dollars? Or maybe 40 acres and a mule as promised and then reneged?

And if I wished to contribute my slim pension income which I certainly do not, who should I give it to? Oprah Winfrey? Michael Jordan? Tiger Woods? Or perhaps to some successful Black physicians, scientists, judges, politicians, journalists, artists, actors, musicians, educators, etc?

Or will the recipients be means tested? Oh wait, we did that already. Lyndon Johnson called it "The Great Society."

Been there, done that. There is a Black middle class whose success rests upon merit. They can and must show the way to the Black underclass. Just as successful Caucasians must act as role models to the White underclass. [not to ignore crossover]

The debate over reparations is an embarrassing anachonism or worse as someone pointed out above it will reopen wounds that are still festering. There are fringes on both sides who will not reconcile. A shame really.