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Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/25/2010 3:26:35 PM

DomKen

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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aGDZMpv5Y9Vo&pos=13
So I guess moving to alternative energy sources won't result in us freezing to death in the dark after all. Someone should alert Sanity.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/25/2010 3:32:59 PM

pahunkboy

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As the dollar declines in value the cost of energy will go up.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/25/2010 3:42:23 PM

subfever

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Wind power, often denounced as weak and impractical, is far more powerful than most people think. A Stanford University study in 2005 found that if only 20% of the planet's wind potential was harnessed, it would cover the entire world's energy needs.

Geothermal power has even greater potential.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/25/2010 4:24:44 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
if only 20% of the planet's wind potential was harnessed, it would cover the entire world's energy needs.

Umm, 20% is an unattainable lot.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/25/2010 6:10:04 PM

alwayssummer

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This is very good news! Thanks.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/25/2010 6:15:50 PM

flcouple2009

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aGDZMpv5Y9Vo&pos=13
So I guess moving to alternative energy sources won't result in us freezing to death in the dark after all. Someone should alert Sanity.

Stop that now. We all know it won't and can't work. The only real answer is to "Drill Baby" and build more nuclear power plants so we have toxic waste we don't know what to do with.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/25/2010 6:45:46 PM

Brain

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The real reason they don't want us to go to alternative energy sources is they want us to keep paying ridiculous prices so they can keep stuffing their wallets with money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aGDZMpv5Y9Vo&pos=13
So I guess moving to alternative energy sources won't result in us freezing to death in the dark after all. Someone should alert Sanity.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/27/2010 6:14:23 PM

thompsonx

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"The cost of any alternative fuel will be exactly equal to the fuel it replaces"

Kieth McCartney
Oxidental petroleum
1970, Los Angeles Convention Center
Westtec trade fair.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/27/2010 6:40:12 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

The real reason they don't want us to go to alternative energy sources is they want us to keep paying ridiculous prices so they can keep stuffing their wallets with money.

Wow, that sucks. And I thought Canada was for alternative energy.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/27/2010 9:23:31 PM

Termyn8or

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Using FR

The relation to the value of the currency is true, but everything is relative. A change in the value of a ollar will be reflected in the dollar cost of everything, proportional to it's price.

Wind, geothermal as well as using the tides of the oceans should be considered. All of them are quite powerful. And I'm not whispering here -

About three years ago a new form of windmill was invented. This thing is like a squirrel cage blower, like in a funace. It will pick up energy very efficiently from any direction. Now that I mention it I wonder who canned that design, because I clearly remember reading about it as well as pictures of successfully operating prototypes. The plan was to use them on top of large buildings. It can probably be found again, but it probably should have been front page news.

""The cost of any alternative fuel will be exactly equal to the fuel it replaces""

That is true, because that is known as the break even point. It will not replace what we have now until it can compete with what people are paying now. Obviously they do not want to pay more. But in time ........

All in all it is good news, but like anything is not the philosopher's stone. The main problem is that wind cannot be counted on as a constant energy supply. People need a constant source. Therefore of course there is research all the time on new battery technology, none of which is very green. Most rechargable batteries are hell on the environment at the end of their life cycle. What other way to store this energy is feasible ?

Well there is one, not really cheap but should be low mainainence and I don't think it has really been explored much. It's kinetic energy so store it kinetically. Daft you say ? Think about it. Let's try to be as green as possible, just pump water up into a big tank, and I mean a BIG tank. In warmer temperate regions it could just be water. In coastal regions it could concievably be seawater, but in any other region there would have to be two tanks. One above ground and one below. In colder climates it would probably need additives to prevent freezing. Only in tropical and warm temperate coastal regions could it be done with one tank.

But I am not talking about generating electricity and using electric pumps, I mean use the kinetic energy directly through sort of a transmission, which would divert the unspent energy to the mechanical pumps. The output of the system in turn drives the generators. The wind dies down and the valve opens. That simple.

Now don't poo poo the idea just because it would have moving parts, first of all if they can build a deisel engine that ran for 100 years, they can do this, especially with modern advances. Well except the human brain. But with modern materials, sealed bearings, if seawater the use of phosphor bronze or whatever may have replaced it. Build it right the first time I see no reason that it shouldn't run for 100 years. You are not poisoning any lubricants with the byproducts of burning fossil fuel. You wouldn't need piston rings, so all you really need is some really durable material for the impellors. Sealed roller bearings, with the proper materials chosen for the seals. (my Mother was an expert in that field)

It CAN be done in my considered opinion. Now everyone tell me why it can't. No, really. If there is a reason that such a system could not work I want to know.

T

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/27/2010 9:28:05 PM

Smutmonger

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Fr.......the real reason to go to alternative energy is to eliminate the need to import. It's still going to cost to build systems to collect various sorts of energy-the main thing larger companies are going to dislike is losing thier monopolies on controlling sources that cannot be produced by consumers themselves.

Expect to see them pushing for fiddly regulations that favor them as the years go by-and the oil runs out.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/27/2010 9:47:35 PM

Termyn8or

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"Expect to see them pushing for fiddly regulations that favor them "

Of course. But then the auto companies tried that and still fell on their faces. In case you weren't aware, the only standards for cars ever passed by the government were the ones with which the manufacturers could comply. Low E standards, Energy Star compliant, also the same. Two simple reasons for that :

1. If industry could not comply there would be no industry and therefore no taxes coming in.

2. Lobbyists.

T

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/27/2010 9:51:22 PM

Smutmonger

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oh no,they will insist on shit like "bird safety" for wind generators........Or zoning that you have to be x number of feet or miles from residential buildings for "blade safety" if a prop breaks. Or publicize the things as "eyesores" to get the suburban yuppie crowd up in arms.

Anything that they can get away with-but don't want an individual consumer being able to do to get around paying THEM for the juice.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/27/2010 10:47:40 PM

Termyn8or

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Then they better stop flying on jets, remember the flock of geese supposedly causing those unexplained compressor stalls resulting in an ocean visit for air travelers a year or so ago ? Poor flock of geeses. Goose can be tasty if cooked right.

Yes, those windmills which were of course invented yesterday have killed many innocent birds, possibly three or four in the last century.

But see, I understand that with enough money they don't have to make any sense.

Sooner or later they won't be able to keep a lid on alternative fuel, but expect them to go out kicking and screaming. They are not going to just give up. Watch their money tree die from lack of sunshine, despite it is in bright sunlight all the time. Problem is it just won't have any leaves left on it.

In other words, let them be the tools of their own demise. Let them prove that they are their own worst enemy.

Really it is plain to see what is going to happen and why, but when is very hard to predict.

T

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/29/2010 9:28:16 AM

DomYngBlk

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The reason that Wind Turbines are not near buildings isn't "blade safety" it is because you can't generate the right amount of "wind" when buildings and/or people are close. Hence, open areas such as the texas plains or mountain tops or Great Lakes are the most desired areas.

As well, if you are going to spend the money to put up the Wind Turbines then you are going to want to have had a basic Bioligical study to see if Migratory birds flow through that particular area. Turbines cost money, replacing blades because of Birds flying into them isn't very quality or cost effective. Just as major airports all have sound systems on runways that have Gulls hanging out near them. It is pretty costly to fix plane engines when birds fly into them.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/29/2010 2:46:09 PM

Irishknight

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Actually, many building do have wind turbines on them. Most people who see them don't even realize what they are. The "wind turbine" is nothing like the large bladed windmill that you see in the wind farms. One the size and basic shape of a 55g drum can produce enough energy even in urban setting to provide a normal family's electrical needs. They are very similar to the "squirrel cage" design that Termy spoke of in that they catch wind from any direction.
There is also a type that looks almost like a ball on top of a stick and it will move in the slightest wind. These are designed to be placed on the roof of an average home to keep the lights going at all times. All of these can be built with screens to keep birds out.
Solar is also amazingly more advanced and less expensive than many of us remember. I can power my home with an excess to sell back with a system that costs around 2 grand. Granted, I don't have a huge house but it is all electric.
I've been researching these systems to power the renaissance faire that my family is building. What we generate during the majority of the year will pay our faire's advertising and entertainment budget.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/30/2010 5:24:56 AM

DomYngBlk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Actually, many building do have wind turbines on them. Most people who see them don't even realize what they are. The "wind turbine" is nothing like the large bladed windmill that you see in the wind farms. One the size and basic shape of a 55g drum can produce enough energy even in urban setting to provide a normal family's electrical needs. They are very similar to the "squirrel cage" design that Termy spoke of in that they catch wind from any direction.
There is also a type that looks almost like a ball on top of a stick and it will move in the slightest wind. These are designed to be placed on the roof of an average home to keep the lights going at all times. All of these can be built with screens to keep birds out.
Solar is also amazingly more advanced and less expensive than many of us remember. I can power my home with an excess to sell back with a system that costs around 2 grand. Granted, I don't have a huge house but it is all electric.
I've been researching these systems to power the renaissance faire that my family is building. What we generate during the majority of the year will pay our faire's advertising and entertainment budget.

That is true Irish. But the earlier writers were lamenting that there would be certain "gov't restrictions" on Windmill type Wind generators. I simply pointed out that putting them up in the way that they suggested you would be a folly.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/30/2010 3:33:16 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Actually, many building do have wind turbines on them. Most people who see them don't even realize what they are. The "wind turbine" is nothing like the large bladed windmill that you see in the wind farms. One the size and basic shape of a 55g drum can produce enough energy even in urban setting to provide a normal family's electrical needs.

No it wont

They are very similar to the "squirrel cage" design that Termy spoke of in that they catch wind from any direction.

They are a high torque low RPM unit that are relatively low power.

There is also a type that looks almost like a ball on top of a stick and it will move in the slightest wind. These are designed to be placed on the roof of an average home to keep the lights going at all times. All of these can be built with screens to keep birds out.

Which also reduces wind velocity

Solar is also amazingly more advanced and less expensive than many of us remember. I can power my home with an excess to sell back with a system that costs around 2 grand. Granted, I don't have a huge house but it is all electric.

I am afraid you are not even in the same zip code with reality.
A quality inverter will run you close to a grand and that is only a fifteen amp service.
Batteries are about $80 each at Costco and you will need more than a dozen.
Solar pannels run about $8 per watt retail and about half that wholesale you will need about 1000 watts of pannel.
I have been off grid and on solar for about 25 years now so I have a smattering of ignorance in this area.
Also the power company here in California will never give you any cash for your power. They will give you a credit against your bill or any bill you have with them but unless you are a power company selling power to Edison you will never get a check. Been der done dat.

I've been researching these systems to power the renaissance faire that my family is building. What we generate during the majority of the year will pay our faire's advertising and entertainment budget.

Best of luck

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/30/2010 3:45:23 PM

Irishknight

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Thompson, as I said, I've been doing the research recently. I have found complete starter solar power systems for under 2000. I am very much in the zip code with reality. In fact reality is camping out in my back pasture.
I've seen the power the wind turbines can generate. They can and do run many houses today at full capacity with low wind speed. And since my welded wire fence or my chicken wire fence doesn't slow wind velocity, a wire screen to keep birds out won't noticably slow wind speed either. In fact, they are usually made with "rabbit wire" which has significantly smaller holes than my fence but still doesn't block wind.
The price of solar and wind falls more and more each and every day. I am sorry that your state fails to buy excess energy. Its a good thing that I live in a "backwards" state like Arkansas that does. I've already spoken to my electric company regarding the matter. My state will even give me up to 4000 dollars toward solar and/or wind power. Its a win/win situation.

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RE: Alternative energy will raise costs. Really? - 4/30/2010 4:00:14 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Thompson, as I said, I've been doing the research recently. I have found complete starter solar power systems for under 2000.

Could you give us a link to take a look see? thanx
I am very much in the zip code with reality. In fact reality is camping out in my back pasture.
I've seen the power the wind turbines can generate. They can and do run many houses today at full capacity with low wind speed. And since my welded wire fence or my chicken wire fence doesn't slow wind velocity, a wire screen to keep birds out won't noticably slow wind speed either. In fact, they are usually made with "rabbit wire" which has significantly smaller holes than my fence but still doesn't block wind.
The price of solar and wind falls more and more each and every day.

I was at a trade convention in Las Vegas last month and had some discussions with some folks who are making some flexible solar pannels/
Then there are the guys who are using nano-tube technology to upgrade the performance of the original cells.
There is talk that within about ten years the technology should be down in the $4 per watt range retail. and 500 watts off of a 5'x3' pannel.

I am sorry that your state fails to buy excess energy.

Yeah me too.
Its a good thing that I live in a "backwards" state like Arkansas that does.

I have been to Arkansas and did not notice it to be particularly "backwards". Of course y'all do talk funny

I've already spoken to my electric company regarding the matter. My state will even give me up to 4000 dollars toward solar and/or wind power. Its a win/win situation.

That you might want to give some consideration. An acquaintance of mine put up a pretty good size setup at his place and got a govt grant and all that and when he got his property tax bill they had increased his property value by the value of the system he put up. Consequently he will be out of the black and into the red in about 8 more years.
If you are going to use a "line tie" that will make the purchase of batteries unnecessary but be aware that if the city power goes down you have no storage.