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SirPumpy -> Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 6:24:18 AM)

Im starting this topic because it is one dear to me and so I dont rant on and on in the McDonalds thread

In part it is a response to the maccas thread but it is more a thread to see if there are others out there who believe in older style parenting building strong kids with a sense of humour who ask questions and expect answers, Kids who also have a healthy level of self respect and thereby also respecting others.

I will from time to time buy my kids Macca's, but it will be a burger or chicken wrap and a bottle of water and I can count the amount of "Happy Meals" Ive bought them over the past 15 years on one hand.

They understand that I know better and that their Mum knows better and accept our choices for them with minimal complaint and almost always say please and thanks.

And yet my kids are the "Different" kids at school, not outcast by any means but noticeably different to the stage that other parents have commented on how nice and well behaved my kids are when they visit for whatever reason.

My kids joke that its because of the regular beatings as they have a wicked sense of humour but sadly some of the people they share this joke with don't seem to possess the same rather dark humour and although its never caused any major issues the running joke has raised a few eyebrows over the years lol.

Why blame McDonalds?

Because its easier than saying that as a nation we have some seriously crappy parents and parenting created by social views and pressures and its not just Australia but I feel most of the so called civilised or western world.

I am (For the record) not a new age Dad and I am infact the opposite, taking my parenting leads from the 50's through to the 70's with the main tenets being boundaries and discipline, building self respect and respect for others as well as a bit of work ethic for good measure.

Am I the weird one?

Yep

Why?

Because these days its about (IMO) kids and the "rights" of kids as well as the creation of a "Me first gimme gimme" generation who are parents..........

And because society seems to have forgotten that the parents too have "Rights" and "Freedoms" although this is being eroded very quickly.

Anyway im rambling so for now....

Rant off!



pegbundy -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 6:47:57 AM)

This is an interesting topic to me. My kids are the "noticably different" ones among their peers as well. I make no claim to them being perfect, but they do stand out as being very well-behaved and well-mannered as this has been pointed out to me repeatedly over the years. There are no regular beatings here, no strict discipline of any sort. And I'd hate to have to admit to how many happy meals they've consumed.

Their father and I did determine, very early on, that we would parent them by first providing them the tools they would need in order to make good choices and then the freedom to make those choices for themselves. They continue to amaze and impress me with how well they actually put this into practice.

I don't suppose there is a "one size fits all" parenting style, though. Seems to me the most important thing is simply to be an active parent in the first place.



SirPumpy -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 7:06:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pegbundy

This is an interesting topic to me. My kids are the "noticably different" ones among their peers as well. I make no claim to them being perfect, but they do stand out as being very well-behaved and well-mannered as this has been pointed out to me repeatedly over the years. There are no regular beatings here, no strict discipline of any sort. And I'd hate to have to admit to how many happy meals they've consumed.

Their father and I did determine, very early on, that we would parent them by first providing them the tools they would need in order to make good choices and then the freedom to make those choices for themselves. They continue to amaze and impress me with how well they actually put this into practice.

I don't suppose there is a "one size fits all" parenting style, though. Seems to me the most important thing is simply to be an active parent in the first place.



I think that you've hit the nail on the head here Peg, and that being an "Active" parent holds the key.

I too tried as hard as I could to give my kids the information, attitude and tools to make the right decisions and this has paid off in the long run although the school system doesn't cope with my parenting methods too well at times.

My kids BTW have never had a hiding or thrashing but they have all at some stage had a smack on the bum which was where the beatings joke came from (Long story) and Ive found that it helped but that there have to be some strict rules if you do strike your child.

Never punish in anger

Never use an implement such as a wooden spoon, kettle cord etc

Always on the behind

Never scream or screech at your kids

Lash out and you lose their respect

And if you do smack their bums then one whack will do and not too hard.

And last of all use a smack as a last resort.



pegbundy -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 7:25:46 AM)

Oh, well my guys certainly received some well deserved smacks on their backsides early on. And, the decision was never made that they would no longer be spanked if necessary. It simply became unnecessary.



twistedwillow -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 7:28:22 AM)

I have to agree with both of you, and followed the same idea as Pumpy, in the way I raised my son.
He is the noticably odd one out in the way he behaves, and at 15, I still have people telling me how lovely and well behaved he is.
He stayed over night at a friends house, and when I went to pick him up his friend, his friends mum, and he were all standing out the front waiting for me, I thought oh fuck whats happened?
It turned out she just wanted to make sure that she caught me to tell me what an amazingly wonderful young man he is, and that he is welcome at her house any time.
He is not perfect by any means, indeed he ended up suspended from school this past week because he lit a flare at school.
But, to my mind, that is just silly teenage boy stuff, boys will be boys, and there is a world of difference between that, and abusing\bullying someone etc.

My policy was, and always has been, that I expect respect.
That when I tell him to do something, particularly if it is out of the ordinary, I expect him to do it straight away because I have my reasons. I am happy to explain those reasons to him, after the threat\or what ever has passed.
And in general, when he was younger, if I asked him not to do something wrong or naughty, if he persisted in his behaviour he got a 5 count and a smack on the butt ...

I remember seeing as a kid, at a party, a kid the same age as me, just running totally wild, being a complete little arsehat, and his dad going, please little johnny don't do that, that is not how we behave is it.
And the kid taking totally no notice of him ... right then and there I decided that when I had kids, they would be getting disciplined. And *chuckles* when we see a kid misbehaving up the street my son now turns and says to me, man that kid needs a kick up the arse!

edited to change runny to running, the kid wasn't an egg, even though I seriously wanted to crack him with a stick,



RCdc -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 7:42:39 AM)

I'm not a new age parent but I don't agree with hitting a child for any reason, not even a swat.
If a person hit their partner out of anger - it wouldn't be acceptable and people cry 'abuse'.  But because these are children, suddenly, it's the thing to do and it's ok - because they have to be disciplined.
There is already a thread over in politics about parenting.  I'm going to post here, what I put there.

The moment you have to raise a hand, you have already lost the battle.  All it matters is time.
But then, I don't have a punishment dynamic anyway.  Master has authority.  He doesn't have authority because he lashes out or gives me a 'clip round the ear' if I ever fell out of line.  Authority doesn't have to exist with physical abuse, that's just fear, not authority.

I have the most amazing children EVER.  Some people who participate on this forum know them and know I am not overstating that fact.  They have amazing friends and they all hang here from time to time.  They aren't 'different' or any more 'special' than their peers - other than I would have obvious bias[;)] - but that's got NOTHING to do with the parents most of the time.  These children - young people and teenagers have fabulous personalities and capabilities.  It just helps if they have someone, somewhere, that lets them all know how special they all are.

the.dark.



SirPumpy -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 7:46:21 AM)

Hmmm so im not the only one out there then!

Supermarkets are my favourite place to observe crap parenting with tantrums being my favourite.

Sometimes from parents and sometimes from the kids and the funny and rewarding thing is when one of my kids comments on how badly other kids behave especially when the parents hear this.

Other steps I take include having to meet the parents or parent when my kids go to play or stay at a mates place and if im not happy with the environment then they either come to my place or just dont stay.

And over time my kids understand my reasons and that im not trying to protect them from these people as much as im ensuring they have a good time and build good friendships and as an added bonus the kids from these households often come here to play and seem to leave a bit better behaved and somewhat wiser.

Good parenting by osmosis lol



pegbundy -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 7:52:04 AM)

Your assumption that anyone here speaks of or advocates hitting a child out of anger is a falsehood and, in my view, does a disservice to getting whatever point you were trying to make across. You are certainly free to agree or disagree to any extent which feels right to you. But don't judge me and I won't judge you. K?



SirPumpy -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:00:36 AM)

Honestly?

Smacking a child should be a last resort but I cant say I agree with you on never smacking a child.

my kids range in age (Counting the step kids) from 22 downwards and all bar the 2 youngest have had a wallop or 2 on the bum.

And its the shock that changes the situation, not pain because my intent is to physically display that their behaviour is too extreme.

This is why smacking kids is not for everyone because not all parents can carry it off properly with out displaying anger or losing it and lashing out.

My kids know I love them unconditionally and that nothing they do will change that.

Sure im disappointed in them at times, and mad as hell sometimes too but when I swat their behinds they know instantly they have gone way too far.

Personally I find parents who verbally abuse their kids to be far worse than just about anything I can think of and sadly I hear it all too often from both Mums and Dads using terms like stupid and idiot and worse.

THAT stuff sticks far worse than a smack on the bum ever will and yet it is far more prevalent than a smack on the bum and draws little or no social commentary.



twistedwillow -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:04:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

If a person hit their partner out of anger - it wouldn't be acceptable and people cry 'abuse'.  But because these are children, suddenly, it's the thing to do and it's ok - because they have to be disciplined.


the.dark.


I agree with peg on this, I have never, NEVER hit my son out of out anger.
And to assume that giving a swat on the butt equals anger is flat out wrong, and, as peg says, does a disservice to what ever point you are trying to make.
The only time I have even come close to this, was when I lost him on my parents property, which had big dams close to the house.
As it turned out he had got on his little bike ( he was 3 at the time ) and followed my father in his truck, to the neighbours house. Dad spotted him and turned him around on his bike and made him ride the thing back home, another 5 km, with dad following behind with the truck ( this was over paddocks, not along a road or highway ) When I spotted him, I was in the car, he came up to the window, I wanted to hold him, hug him from relief but I knew if i touched him I would start spanking and not stop. I told him to get home, and I sat in the car in the middle of the paddock for about 3 hours and simply cried with relief.
I did not, and never have touched him in anger, even relieved anger.

Damn typos.My fingers are dyslexic



RCdc -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:04:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pegbundy

Your assumption that anyone here speaks of or advocates hitting a child out of anger is a falsehood and, in my view, does a disservice to getting whatever point you were trying to make across. You are certainly free to agree or disagree to any extent which feels right to you. But don't judge me and I won't judge you. K?


Doesn't matter if it is anger or whether it was spanked out of discipline.  If you believe that an adult hitting another adult for either the fore mentioned is abuse then it's the same for a child(and I am not speaking of socalled 'consensual' discipline during play).
You can judge me as much as you feel you need to.  Judging rocks and you are entitled to your opinion and your observations just as much as I am.  I'm not going to get all down with the 'judging is such a bad detrimental thing' because it's not.  People make judgements all the time... if they didn't, the human race would have ceased to exist a long time ago.

Hitting a child to make a point heard or final is abusive and has no sense of authority whatsoever.  It's simply the power of 'see how much this hurts?  right, now just think how much more pain there will be if you do something I am warning you against'.  That's exerting power, not authority.  If the child responds to you in a positive manner, it's because you had the authority already, not because you hit the child.  The hit is just a wasted action, but it's something tangible that reassures a person that they at least did something.

the.dark.



twistedwillow -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:13:13 AM)

I guess I am just an old fashioned girl.
I believe in personal responsibility, and action and consequence.
But then I let him make his own mistakes too, unless they happen to be life threatening ones.
As I said, old fashioned.



SirPumpy -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:18:42 AM)

Sadly You make too many assumptions for your point of view to be seen as a serious and rational one.

So im going to clarify a few things.

Smacking a child on the bottom is not abuse, its parenting and good parenting is not always easy. (Or popular)

It is a smack, not spanking.

There is no correlation between physical or domestic abuse and smacking a child and I can say that Ive seen many horrific cases of abuse in my time.

it is about a mindset, not power and fear and the intent in smacking a childs bum is totally different to the intent displayed when you commit acts of physical abuse.

Im sure than none of us condone the physical or verbal abuse of kids but to say that smacking a child always equals abuse is incorrect.




RCdc -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:19:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedwillow
I agree with peg on this, I have never, NEVER hit my son out of out anger.
And to assume that giving a swat on the butt equals anger is flat out wrong, and, as peg says, does a disservice to what ever point you are trying to make.


I didn't say that hitting in anger is the same as hitting a child for any other reason.  That is your assumption... quite clearly I posted a response to the OP THEN stated that I was posting what I wrote from another thread.  Two entirely different things.  I trust that was a misunderstanding and not an attempt to twist my words.

I find it interesting that both you and Peg both addressed me and became all defensive when what I did was respond to the OP and agreed with exactly what he said...
quote:

Never punish in anger

I responded.
quote:

If a person hit their partner out of anger - it wouldn't be acceptable and people cry 'abuse'.  But because these are children, suddenly, it's the thing to do and it's ok - because they have to be disciplined.


And yet you stated you agreed with him, so which is it?  Do you agree that punishment and hitting should not be done in anger, or not?

the.dark.



SirPumpy -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:20:00 AM)

BTW my thanks to Twisted willow for reminding my tired old brain about consequence.



soul2share -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:20:22 AM)

I too am an "old style" parent.  There is a huge difference between a smack on the ass and abuse.....the only time I ever really wanted to make an impression (no pun intended) with a spanking was when I caught mt son trying to jam a penny into the wall socket, and even then it was an open handed whack on the diaper...more noise than anything, and since he didn't see me coming, the sheer surprise of the swat scared the bejeezus outta him!

I remember one time, he was about 4 years old, and we were at my parent's campsite.  My son and nephew were tearing around on bikes playing with the other kids at the campground working up a sweat.  All of us moms were sitting around the fire talking, and my son came up to ask for something to drink.  He stood there, and waited for a break in the conversation, and said "Scooze, Mom, can we have something to drink, please?"  He got his drinks and went back to playing...the women there, all grandmas, were floored!  They couldn't believe what they'd seen....basic manners from a 4 year old!  Nothing drives me crazier that kids interrupting a conversation....and the parent just ignoring the kid, who just hollers louder and louder.  My son never in his entire life ever threw a temper tantrum, if I said "no" he said "ok".  However, I also spoke to my son in a manner that he was always capable of understanding......no baby talk, no cutsie-talk.  If I didn't have the money, or if he already had what he was asking for at home, I'd simply tell him that, and he'd be fine.

These days it seems that kids run roughshod over their parents.....they have no basic morals or considerations that we had when we were growing up.  Yeah, I got my butt beat a couple of times growing up, and lived through it.  And every one of those spankings I got because I'd deserved it.  And you know something?  There is a huge difference in the way me and my sisters brought their kids up....the middle sister and I were the same way, but my youngest sister, the baby of the family who was spoiled, has absolutely NO control over her two kids, my niece is a mother at 19...she had so much going for her, and hopefully will stay on the track she was on before the baby, and my nephew is a high school dropout w/behavioral issues who never comes out of his room.  They have always been mouthy and disrespectful, my niece not so much as my nephew, who was coddled anyway because of his "problems".  If I had ever talked to my parents the way that those two talked to my sister, or the rotten brats I've observed in public, I'd STILL be spitting teeth!

Unfortunately, this is just a spiraling cycle that will continue, as parents hand down the same attitudes, morality, respect and consideration from one generation to the next.  It's terrifying to me that the kids of today are going to be the adults of tomorrow.....we are in biiiiiig trouble!



twistedwillow -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:29:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: twistedwillow
I agree with peg on this, I have never, NEVER hit my son out of out anger.
And to assume that giving a swat on the butt equals anger is flat out wrong, and, as peg says, does a disservice to what ever point you are trying to make.


I didn't say that hitting in anger is the same as hitting a child for any other reason.  That is your assumption... quite clearly I posted a response to the OP THEN stated that I was posting what I wrote from another thread.  Two entirely different things.  I trust that was a misunderstanding and not an attempt to twist my words.

It was a misunderstanding, and not an attempt to twist your words.

I find it interesting that both you and Peg both addressed me and became all defensive when what I did was respond to the OP and agreed with exactly what he said...
quote:

Never punish in anger

I responded.
quote:

If a person hit their partner out of anger - it wouldn't be acceptable and people cry 'abuse'.  But because these are children, suddenly, it's the thing to do and it's ok - because they have to be disciplined.


And yet you stated you agreed with him, so which is it?  Do you agree that punishment and hitting should not be done in anger, or not?

To me it read like ALL spanking was done in anger, it is 1.30am here, so I, again, probably misread what you wrote.
Punishment and hitting should NEVER be done in anger. And as others have pointed out, it is more the shock of it than the actual physical pain.

the.dark.




pegbundy -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:29:15 AM)

I could not possibly disagree with you more. But, you've had your say now and I suppose there was a point in there somewhere. I shall look forward to disagreeing with you again in the near future. Take care now.



RCdc -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:31:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirPumpy

Sadly You make too many assumptions for your point of view to be seen as a serious and rational one.

So im going to clarify a few things.

Smacking a child on the bottom is not abuse, its parenting and good parenting is not always easy. (Or popular)

It is a smack, not spanking.

There is no correlation between physical or domestic abuse and smacking a child and I can say that Ive seen many horrific cases of abuse in my time.

it is about a mindset, not power and fear and the intent in smacking a childs bum is totally different to the intent displayed when you commit acts of physical abuse.

Im sure than none of us condone the physical or verbal abuse of kids but to say that smacking a child always equals abuse is incorrect.




There are no assumptions in my posts.
Punishing in anger is futile.  You stated this and I agree.  Doesn't matter the punishment, it's self defeating.

Abuse is defined as an act that mistreats another.  A smack is a mistreatment.  People get nervous though when confronted with the accusation of abuse - it's human nature to feel that kind of indignity - but that is how I feel and I do not make an apology for that.  Like I said, that's a judgement for me and to judge a person is fine.  Your very op is a judgement call in itself... nothing profound or abhorant about that.
But that smack wouldn't work if you (generic) didn't have authority in the beginning.   You don't smack someone first and then get respect or authority - well, unless you were the Krays or something - so the smack is simply a wasted use of kinetic energy.

the.dark.



RCdc -> RE: Parenting and Parents today (4/29/2010 8:35:31 AM)

It's all good.  There is me trying to be good for the moderators and not annoy them with the whole quoting feature (they like us to trim our quotes) so it probably didn't come across as clear as I could see what I was saying.  Had I put shit in quote boxes and quoted bit by bit, it probably would have made more sense.

Meh, I was damned either way.[;)]

the.dark.



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