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YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration reform&q... - 4/29/2010 4:23:11 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		***BREAKING*** (that's for "Brain.") There's no support for it in the country or in the Congress or the Senate.
Seems noone wants to be "The Senator/Congressman who voted for amnesty" come election time!
Now let's see if the president will show us some *real change* and start enforcing the federal laws on illegal aliens and closing that border

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/29/2010 4:32:26 PM   
ladynlord


Posts: 247
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline 		Didn't the U.S. already do an amnesty a couple of times? I don't remember when the last one was though.

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/29/2010 4:35:13 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		1986 was a once in a lifetime amnesty.

(in reply to ladynlord)
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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/29/2010 8:26:46 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ladynlord

Didn't the U.S. already do an amnesty a couple of times? I don't remember when the last one was though.

Bush talked about it but got shot down (by his own party).

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/29/2010 8:40:32 PM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		They will pass the "Comprehensive Immigration Bill" shortly after the elections in November before the new Congress is inaugurated in January. People who are voted out (future lobbyists) will vote yes then and the bill can be pushed through.

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/29/2010 8:42:42 PM   
ThatDaveGuy69


Posts: 978
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		Regan did the amnesty thing in order to satisfy the (big) produce farmers and other exploiters of cheap, immigrant labor who helped him get beyond CA. It was also a nod to the millions of Hispanics who voted for him. Once upon a time the GOP had about 60% of the Hispanic vote.

We never really had this sort of "unwelcome" flood in the past - it's really been over the last 30 years thanks to Ragan-omics, Clinto-nomics, and, of course, 8yrs of Bush being completely asleep at the switch.

When your economy is in the toilet it's OK to be a bit protectionist. It's also a pretty good idea to secure your borders.

But before we "reform" our immigration laws I really think we should nail all the people who are hiring and exploiting the illegals. It's supply and demand: we have a supply of jobs and cheap illegal labor fills the demand.

~Dave


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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/29/2010 9:00:23 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

When your economy is in the toilet it's OK to be a bit protectionist.

Not according to history.

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/29/2010 9:59:32 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

They will pass the "Comprehensive Immigration Bill" shortly after the elections in November before the new Congress is inaugurated in January. People who are voted out (future lobbyists) will vote yes then and the bill can be pushed through.


Fellow, once again they don't have the votes.
Are you suggesting that they somehow try to sneak something like that through and basically give the finger to the American People?
That's not how our govt. is supposed to work.
If they tired something like that what do you think would happen to them when they got back to their home states?

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/29/2010 10:01:56 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Representatives have got to start being more afraid of their constituents than their party bosses.

Constituents have got to start giving them reason to be afraid.

Party boss or re-election. Choose.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 4/29/2010 10:02:18 PM >

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/29/2010 10:28:57 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Representatives have got to start being more afraid of their constituents than their party bosses.

Constituents have got to start giving them reason to be afraid.

Party boss or re-election. Choose.






Music, they all seem to be afraid now don't they?
With all this illegal alien-Arizona stuff going on their phones have been ringing off the hook with angry constituents!
I talked to one of my congressman's staffers yesterday afternoon and she said, "Everytime!" "Everytime they even mention anything about amnesty we get angry calls for weeks!"

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/30/2010 12:04:26 AM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Are you suggesting that they somehow try to sneak something like that through and basically give the finger to the American People?
That's not how our govt. is supposed to work.

This is exactly what I predict will happen. Obama promised immigration reform and he needs to deliver. The immigration reform for latinos  means amnesty for illegals and latino lobby; they will accept nothing less.  Also, the business lobby expects amnesty. Democrats need to move relatively fast because they would like it would be forgotten by 2012. Also, actions by the states enacting their own laws speeds up the federal approach.  Obama needs credit for leadership. Of course, they will not call it amnesty. Perhaps it will be "adjustment of the immigration status of undocumented workers act". The way health insurance reform was passed did not fit exactly how the government is supposed to work. I think immigration reform is not so hard to pass. It is a bipartisan issue. Most US congressmen believe the government should be "pro business" and many businesses would benefit. Currently the federal government actually does not enforce immigration laws, only pretends it does. Where are the 800 mile fence and workplace enforcement?  I do not see any possibility significant number of the illegals will be deported. The idea that by deporting illegals US can solve unemployment problem is obviously economically illiterate thinking. How do you solve the problem without amnesty? Canada has regular amnesty programs. People are angry for a while but it fades fast. From the government prospective the amnesty is good; it increases tax revenue and it frees immigration enforcement officials of the burden tracking illegals. Also, I have a feeling it gives give a little boost to the economy. In the USA it also means increased latino vote for the Democrats if they will be able to push it through. I doubt white vote for the Democrats will be significantly reduced esp. if it can be served as a bipartisan issue.

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/30/2010 3:08:34 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I dont see how you do an amnesty until you have first closed the borders tight, otherwise you simply invite another wave to immigrate illegally. If you close the borders tight and issue amnesty then you have to explain to some of those waiting in line legally why they, having played by the rules, might not be admitted at all. So you need to revamp the legal immigration system so that it works better and becomes the preferred option to immigrate.

Those in the US illegally would obviously have to come forward to benefit from an amnesty. But there is a question about when they must do so - if they are given an extended period to come forward, the border will be busy as many more than are in the US now swarm over in order to benefit. So those claiming should have to prove they have been in the US for a period of time - difficult, when youre living below the radar and trying not to leave a paper trail.

And then there is the question of criminals. Should it be the case that people who have immigrated illegally and then been convicted of any crime should be allowed to benefit from amnesty? They may be in prison now or they may have served time and been deported on a previous occasion, only to have returned later. Should they get the benefit too?

And what of those in the US alone at the moment who are given amnesty - are they then permitted to bring in their families, representing anything from double upwards the number of new legal immigrants compared to those given amnesty?

And once made legal immigrants and so subject to the normal frameworks of employment - will they keep the jobs they have, which presumably they have because the employer wishes to avoid the costs of those frameworks, or will they become more welfare claimants, being dismissed as too costly to employ? Will thereby a new wave of illegal immigrants not be pulled in, to fill those jobs at the lower payroll rate?

And of course, who is to pay to secure that border first, and then the far longer one to the north? Presuming of course that it can be done at all? And what of the sea routes? Is the future one of boatloads of would be immigrants drowning in the Gulf or having to be rescued, at taxpayer expense?

There isnt one aspect of this matter that is anything like straightforward or which does not carry the potential for unintended consequences and implications, whether the solution - and there must be a solution found - is deportation or amnesty or simply doing nothing.

E

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/30/2010 6:34:59 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Music, they all seem to be afraid now don't they?


But this is still a party decision.

When politicians are forced to choose between party loyalty or re-election, we can again debate and discuss issues.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/30/2010 6:39:12 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		They won't as long as the corporate lobby is their master.  Unlimited campaign funds from the corporate person will drive the agenda, not folks like you and me, Tim (and this includes Sanity and whatnot, even though they align with them time to time).

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/30/2010 7:08:46 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Now let's see if the president will show us some *real change* and start enforcing the federal laws on illegal aliens and closing that border


Sure, Popeye. Maybe he'll start with his auntie. You know the one. Still fighting her deportation order while living in taxpayer subsidized housing.

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/30/2010 7:15:34 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

They won't as long as the corporate lobby is their master.  Unlimited campaign funds from the corporate person will drive the agenda, not folks like you and me, Tim (and this includes Sanity and whatnot, even though they align with them time to time).

As long as ads take the place of thinking, yup.

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/30/2010 12:06:40 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

quote:

Are you suggesting that they somehow try to sneak something like that through and basically give the finger to the American People?
That's not how our govt. is supposed to work.

This is exactly what I predict will happen. Obama promised immigration reform and he needs to deliver. The immigration reform for latinos  means amnesty for illegals and latino lobby; they will accept nothing less.  Also, the business lobby expects amnesty. Democrats need to move relatively fast because they would like it would be forgotten by 2012. Also, actions by the states enacting their own laws speeds up the federal approach.  Obama needs credit for leadership. Of course, they will not call it amnesty. Perhaps it will be "adjustment of the immigration status of undocumented workers act". The way health insurance reform was passed did not fit exactly how the government is supposed to work. I think immigration reform is not so hard to pass. It is a bipartisan issue. Most US congressmen believe the government should be "pro business" and many businesses would benefit. Currently the federal government actually does not enforce immigration laws, only pretends it does. Where are the 800 mile fence and workplace enforcement?  I do not see any possibility significant number of the illegals will be deported. The idea that by deporting illegals US can solve unemployment problem is obviously economically illiterate thinking. How do you solve the problem without amnesty? Canada has regular amnesty programs. People are angry for a while but it fades fast. From the government prospective the amnesty is good; it increases tax revenue and it frees immigration enforcement officials of the burden tracking illegals. Also, I have a feeling it gives give a little boost to the economy. In the USA it also means increased latino vote for the Democrats if they will be able to push it through. I doubt white vote for the Democrats will be significantly reduced esp. if it can be served as a bipartisan issue.



Fellow, oh sure, we wouldn't want to "inconveience" businesses that break the law now would we!
Dick Morris the other day said this issue alone "will" cause the Democrats to lose the House *and* the Senate. Most people are pretty sure that the Dems will lose the House but I was very surprised when he included the Senate as well! He said John McCain's flip-floping and "now supporting" enforcing our immigration laws and securing that Mexican border should be a "fire alarm" to Democrats.
And what do you mean by the "white vote?" Obama didn't mention anything about the "white vote" the other day when he appealed to "Latinos, Blacks and Women" to support the Democratic Pary. Are "Latinos, Blacks and Women" starting to leave the Democratic Party? Is there something President Obama isn't telling us?
I don't think anyone can deny that there is a tremendous amount of anger out here. Look at Harry Reid, his disapproval rating is 60-62% I believe. You don't recover from something like that. And Boxer, Murry, and a bunch of others are in real trouble too.
And President Obama's first obligation is to the American People, not to foreign nationals who are in our country illegally.
I guess we'll see what this brings on November 2nd. Like Clint Eastwood said; "Go ahead, make my day!"
And where's President Obama been the last eight days while oil is flowing into the Gulf of Mexico? It's like Bush and New Orleans all over again.
This is shaping up to be "Bush's Third Term." Bush wasn't real good at enforcing federal law either was he?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/30/2010 12:13:11 PM >

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/30/2010 12:34:40 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

From the government prospective the amnesty is good; it increases tax revenue and it frees immigration enforcement officials of the burden tracking illegals.


Interesting position regarding taxation but contrary to illegal worker advocates positions:

According to the IRS, the number of taxpayer-identification numbers assigned annually in the U.S. has risen from 615,414 in 1999 to 1,837,583 in 2009. More than 7.8 million have been distributed in the past five years.

A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes.

Both sources are pro-illegal worker or pro amnesty. They point to the "good tax paying" illegal worker as a reason to grant amnesty.

The bottom line implication is that little, if any, additional tax revenue will be generated. The negative impact is, although many States like California facilitate the use of public funds for those illegally in the county, once given amnesty, additional resources especially pointed to the new universal US health care law, will be necessary. Unless your position is that all the illegals made legal will be at an income level exceeding the threshold for government assistance.

The other factor is that all of a sudden after the amnesty there will be no more people coming into the country illegally. It was the exact faulty logic behind the last amnesty program under President Reagan. All the promises of; "This is the last time! We will strictly enforce the borders!" sure rings hollow.

quote:

Where are the 800 mile fence and workplace enforcement?
Where indeed! Promised before, promised now - How about fulfilling the last Federal obligation pointed to this issue before trying to implement another "Last Chance" amnesty program?

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/30/2010 12:40:16 PM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline 		~FR
Close the border?

Aw, Canadians aren't THAT bad...or did you mean Russians? Did a Ruskie step on Sarah Palin's lawn???

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RE: YahooNews; "Obama takes "immigration refo... - 4/30/2010 1:07:52 PM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

And President Obama's first obligation is to the American People, not to foreign nationals who are in our country illegally.


I think most of the opposition to amnesty is driven by American nationalism (protecting the established culture of  European origin and the language). The economic concerns are questionable as cheap labor and high consumption (% of income) definitely benefits higher income earners. For today's elites nationalism is very bad word and for them it usually equates with racism. They do not understand it. Even speaking of it is taboo; you never hear it brought up in discussions. They are internationalists and globalists. They shop in Paris, invest in China and adopt from Africa. They do not care who lives in city poor districts and what language they speak. They  make  the policy.  I doubt the US democracy is strong enough to stop the amnesty bill. We will see.

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