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ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

just wanted to add that i base my belief and faith in there being something after we leave these worldly bodies on the following...

mom in home hospice for 3 weeks, comatose the last week, something made me hang up the phone and go to her.  i told her sister that i had to go now.

went to her side, and her eyes were open and as bright as they have ever been.  she looked to the foot of the bed and smiled that mom smile and called my daddys name.  i said momma if you wanna go join him you can go.  she smiled the biggest smile i ever saw and she took her last breath. 

that moment is the most spiritual thing i have ever experienced, and i get tears and chills typing about it.  can i prove it to anyone? no.

would someone who only believes in things that can be proven believe it.  no.

was it real to me, and still real to me? you bet.

she saw no light, she didnt call the name of jesus or god.  she called my daddys name.  and no one will ever convince me that he was not there to welcome her to the other side, as i hope they both will be when it is my time to join them.

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ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

just wanted to add that i base my belief and faith in there being something after we leave these worldly bodies on the following...

mom in home hospice for 3 weeks, comatose the last week, something made me hang up the phone and go to her.  i told her sister that i had to go now.

went to her side, and her eyes were open and as bright as they have ever been.  she looked to the foot of the bed and smiled that mom smile and called my daddys name.  i said momma if you wanna go join him you can go.  she smiled the biggest smile i ever saw and she took her last breath. 

that moment is the most spiritual thing i have ever experienced, and i get tears and chills typing about it.  can i prove it to anyone? no.

would someone who only believes in things that can be proven believe it.  no.

was it real to me, and still real to me? you bet.

she saw no light, she didnt call the name of jesus or god.  she called my daddys name.  and no one will ever convince me that he was not there to welcome her to the other side, as i hope they both will be when it is my time to join them.

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ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Tim and I both agree that experience and intuition are both ways in which we experience the world. I am not sure that we agree that these are "reliable" until they pass scientific muster.

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To LA:
I'm going to agree with MM, Firm and Treasure...Although it's subtle..I think you may have a personal bias driven by ego on this one. Edited to add: Not with the base of the OP but with the debate thereafter.

I'm pretty sure you meant well as you seem to most of the time.

My comment earlier was just a take on ego as MM I believe has pointed out. Critical/Logical thinking needs to be tempered with rational deduction and thought but will sadly always be peppered with a dash of ego..I don't think we can entirely get away from it..Just when you think you have it in check it's probably the time you don't fully.

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As for my ego, yes I have a very strong one, that I do not deny, and without it, I would not have gotten to where I am. U do not however use it to crush people or to appear to be superior. But people will see me based on their perspective which is absolutely out of my control.

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ORIGINAL: Icarys

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As for my ego, yes I have a very strong one, that I do not deny, and without it, I would not have gotten to where I am. U do not however use it to crush people or to appear to be superior. But people will see me based on their perspective which is absolutely out of my control.

Essentially to a large degree your correct..It is out of our control..but you can add influence based on the the things we do and say. No guarantee that it will influence them in a particular way..but hey...

I'd say a good 99% of what I see you say lacks any ill will so the occasional "perceived" arrogance is only human. I still love ya.

Firm does seem to take a "perceived" stance of the personal at times which of course is ego driven as well. :>

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ORIGINAL: Icarys

I'd say a good 99% of what I see you say lacks any ill will so the occasional "perceived" arrogance is only human. I still love ya.

Firm does seem to take a "perceived" stance of the personal at times which of course is ego driven as well. :>

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ORIGINAL: domiguy

I was once neck deep in a river, caught in the current, sporting a pair of waders filled to the brim with several hundred pounds of river water. I had no way of knowing how deep the water was behind me as I was being pushed down stream. I believe I might have mentioned to God something about being in a bit of a pickle and that "a little help here" might be appreciated. Almost immediately a boat came from around the bend and pulled our hero to shore.

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"Zen and the art of Archery,motorcycle maintainence,...etc were novels not fact.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I do not have any animosity towards LA at all.  I think it was a great thread, and a great debate.  Kudos!

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The scientific person does have the capacity to explane musical talent

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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"Zen and the art of Archery,motorcycle maintainence,...etc were novels not fact.

Zen in the Art of Archery is a factual account by a German philosophy who travels to Japan to teach and studies Archery under a Zen Master. It is not, in any way, a novel. Clearly, you've never read it. You should. It's a fascinating look inside.

Zen in the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is a novel, an exploration of values. It doesn't apply to this discussion.

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ORIGINAL: taleon

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
You went from "way of knowing" to absolute truth, a claim I never made. Then you mentioned using methodology to move to predictive power--and this is indeed a way of knowing.

A claim you never made, but a claim many religions do make. And therein science and religion are opposed. Science doesn't claim to be the guardian and defender of the truth, but religion, in my experience, often does exactly that.

I can't be responsible for claims others make. If you post in response to my post, I have to assume you're talking to me.

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A concept like Tao, which I first learned and studied seriously as a young musician--I can tell you that there is more than ourselves, or that at least it seems that way, and that by letting go one can learn to access and even direct it to accomplish more than one can do unaided. I can even teach other musicians how to do this. Accomplished T'ai Chi practitioners can do the same, demonstrating amazing feats, which I've also witnessed and, to a lesser degree than as a musician, experienced.

What do you mean by "letting go"?

Not everything can be understood with the mind. This is largely the point of meditation. Freeing ego and worry and preconception and more into just being with the art. It is not easy to learn.

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Now, to turn this to science, we'd need a hypothesis about measurable causality. At least at present, we don't have that, only the observable phenomena and the duplicable experiential results. Yet it's a way of knowing that we can use practically.

Back to Newton. You mentioned it yourself, we can experience his laws first hand, and we can test his equations. It would be great if the same applies to the experience you describe. If you can write down how to duplicate that effect, I'll try to duplicate it.

First you'll need to master an art. In my case, you'll need to be a musician or a T'ai Chi practitioner, or a writer. This is why I reference (and linked to) Zen and the Art of Archery, where it is indeed already written down. This was my first guide as well.

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I do not have any animosity towards LA at all.  I think it was a great thread, and a great debate.  Kudos!

I just stumbled across it an hour ago, and was quite amazed. It's the most interesting, civil debate I've seen here since christ was a kindergartner. I don't think threads like that happened here anymore. I can't remember a thread that went 15 pages and every page was worth the read.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The point overall, the one sticking in people's craws, is the false dichotomy of describing experience only in terms of science vs. religion. As Firm pointed out early on, we have religious scientists, so that notion is already suspect. But just as we have people who see anything not conservative as liberal, when in fact there is a world of nuance outside of the artificial left/right paradigm, so too does the science/religion lens distort reality, denying a wealth of experience beyond that constraint. That's not to say religion doesn't unreasonably go after science at times--it does. But buying into that divide doesn't make a debater smarter or less culpable--just gullible, and equally not thinking freely.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The point overall, the one sticking in people's craws, is the false dichotomy of describing experience only in terms of science vs. religion. As Firm pointed out early on, we have religious scientists, so that notion is already suspect. But just as we have people who see anything not conservative as liberal, when in fact there is a world of nuance outside of the artificial left/right paradigm, so too does the science/religion lens distort reality, denying a wealth of experience beyond that constraint. That's not to say religion doesn't unreasonably go after science at times--it does. But buying into that divide doesn't make a debater smarter or less culpable--just gullible, and equally not thinking freely.

Damn well stated, MusicMystery.

Firm

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I do not have any animosity towards LA at all.  I think it was a great thread, and a great debate.  Kudos!