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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 7:02:37 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I do not have any animosity towards LA at all.  I think it was a great thread, and a great debate.  Kudos!


I just stumbled across it an hour ago, and was quite amazed. It's the most interesting, civil debate I've seen here since christ was a kindergartner. I don't think threads like that happened here anymore. I can't remember a thread that went 15 pages and every page was worth the read.


You read all 15 pages? You deserve a medal.


The Panda is hawt like that ;-)

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 7:08:18 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Again, it's not that I disagree with you, just that your response is firmly camped inside that dogmatic false dichotomy.

Those "who have advanced the cause of humanity" did so in spite of not just religion, but science and invested academies. Every major scientific advancement is not a break through, but a break with, existing thinking.

Since he was evoked earlier in the discussion:

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
- Albert Einstein

No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.
- Albert Einstein

The mere formulation of a problem is far more essential than its solution, which may be merely a matter of mathematical or experimental skills. To raise new questions, new possibilities, to regard old problems from a new angle requires creative imagination and marks real advances in science.
- Albert Einstein

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 7:27:06 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Sole high school teacher? You really know nothing about home schooling. And at 24, yes, he is working towards his bachelors.

Good for him, better late then never. When it comes to my other question, why do you need to obfuscate instead of answering the question or explaining why it is invalid and then explaining why you are qualified to be a high school teacher?

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 7:49:34 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Much as I respect science, it's not the only way we reliably experience the world.

What exactly are those other ways we might reliably experience the world?

I've explained this three times already. Please take a look. Thanks!



You have huh...
Well here is the only thing I can find that you have posted in this thread:
quote:

I can tell you that there is more than ourselves, or that at least it seems that way, and that by letting go one can learn to access and even direct it to accomplish more than one can do unaided.


You say "or at least it seems that way"
I am having trouble with this being any sort of explanation of anything except "touchy feelie"
If there is something more please link me to it as I have gone over your post in this thread looking for what ever it is you are refering to.



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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 7:50:09 PM   
brainiacsub


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Again, it's not that I disagree with you, just that your response is firmly camped inside that dogmatic false dichotomy.

Those "who have advanced the cause of humanity" did so in spite of not just religion, but science and invested academies. Every major scientific advancement is not a break through, but a break with, existing thinking.
[...]

Be careful. You just made the OP's point. Every major scientific advancement has also been a break with existing religious thought. Religion in no way ever seeks to reinvent itself and requires faith for belief. No critical thinking required. I thought that was point of this thread.

As for your "false dichotomy," after 15 pages I'm still not sure what you are talking about.
Critical thinking vs religion? No false dichotomy there. They are diametrically opposed to each other.

Critical thinking vs Zen or some other meditation? No false dichotomy there either. They are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not trying to be obtuse and I don't want to drag this thread in to 20 pages. I just disagree with you. We can call it a night.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 7:55:27 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

The point overall, the one sticking in people's craws, is the false dichotomy of describing experience only in terms of science vs. religion. As Firm pointed out early on, we have religious scientists,

You dont remember the part where his less then complete post was totally refuted by ....facts.



so that notion is already suspect. But just as we have people who see anything not conservative as liberal, when in fact there is a world of nuance outside of the artificial left/right paradigm, so too does the science/religion lens distort reality, denying a wealth of experience beyond that constraint.


Do you want to discuss nuance or would you prefer to discuss basics?


That's not to say religion doesn't unreasonably go after science at times--it does. But buying into that divide doesn't make a debater smarter or less culpable--just gullible, and equally not thinking freely.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 8:02:38 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

please link me

http://www.collarchat.com/searchpro.asp?author=Musicmystery

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 8:07:05 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Be careful. You just made the OP's point.

This is not a war. It's not a matter of taking sides. If this supports the OP, great. If it doesn't, great.
quote:

Every major scientific advancement has also been a break with existing religious thought.

Nonsense. How was relativity, for example, a break with religious thought? A break with Newton, yes.

quote:

Religion in no way ever seeks to reinvent itself

Ever heard of the Reformation?

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 8:12:47 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

The point overall, the one sticking in people's craws, is the false dichotomy of describing experience only in terms of science vs. religion. As Firm pointed out early on, we have religious scientists,

You dont remember the part where his less then complete post was totally refuted by ....facts.

so that notion is already suspect. But just as we have people who see anything not conservative as liberal, when in fact there is a world of nuance outside of the artificial left/right paradigm, so too does the science/religion lens distort reality, denying a wealth of experience beyond that constraint.

Do you want to discuss nuance or would you prefer to discuss basics?

That's not to say religion doesn't unreasonably go after science at times--it does. But buying into that divide doesn't make a debater smarter or less culpable--just gullible, and equally not thinking freely.


Thompson, this is silly. I pointed to a single point, correctly made. You reference a different point on a different matter to refute it? Come on. That's ridiculous.

What are you talking about, nuance or basics? Another false dichotomy? I would rather look at reality rather than oversimplifications, especially when they distort.

I'm getting the feeling that some aren't even able to conceive that an either/or view of the world is flawed and distorts, that other options even might exist. I hope I'm mistaken in that feeling. But it would explain the reactions.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 8:54:40 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

Thank you for this. It is appreciated after an afternoon of being misinterpreted.

- LA

Don't mention it.


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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 8:58:09 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

I agree that I have an ego. Even a large one at times.

I try not to get too "personal" by insulting and such and generally just try to ignore any obvious ad hominem remarks.

LA didn't make any real ad hominem remarks in the discuss. She did, I believe, allow inherent biases to color her rhetorical style and counter-points, which I tried to point out as a non-personally insulting manner as I could. Yet, such counterpoints almost inevitable engender negative feelings.

She did an admirable job of overcome any tendency she may have had in resorting in a less than complimentary manner.

I do not have any animosity towards LA at all. I think it was a great thread, and a great debate. Kudos!

Firm

I've often wondered why people seem to think large ego's are a good thing.

As for the bias part: I think we all are from time to time..Can't help it even if you try. All a person can do is to keep it to a minimum. Along with ego's


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 8:59:15 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Again, it's not that I disagree with you, just that your response is firmly camped inside that dogmatic false dichotomy.

Those "who have advanced the cause of humanity" did so in spite of not just religion, but science and invested academies. Every major scientific advancement is not a break through, but a break with, existing thinking.
[...]

Be careful. You just made the OP's point. Every major scientific advancement has also been a break with existing religious thought. Religion in no way ever seeks to reinvent itself and requires faith for belief. No critical thinking required. I thought that was point of this thread.

As for your "false dichotomy," after 15 pages I'm still not sure what you are talking about.
Critical thinking vs religion? No false dichotomy there. They are diametrically opposed to each other.

Critical thinking vs Zen or some other meditation? No false dichotomy there either. They are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not trying to be obtuse and I don't want to drag this thread in to 20 pages. I just disagree with you. We can call it a night.


Too late.  20 more pages coming up! 

MusicMystery has answered your points, and specifically mentioned the Reformation.

I think that there is an interesting theory that also shows that there is a closer, and more intertwined relationship between science and religion (at least the Christian religion) than many people are willing to consider.

Did Christianity set the cultural and philosophical basis for the widespread adoption and growth of the philosophy of science?

I am well aware that I'll hear cries of "Hell NO!" and talk of Galileo.  But I also believe that people who simply bring up one or two examples fail to take into account the wider philosophical and cultural aspects of Christianity which favored the gathering, saving and testing of knowledge

There is a fair amount of academic literature on this, and while I do not wish to sidetrack the thread (if you consider this a sidetrack), I simply wish to point out that the relationship between science, logic and (at least one) religion not only doesn't have to be antagonistic, it can actually be supportive.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 5/2/2010 9:00:34 PM >

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 9:02:12 PM   
cloudboy


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Ahh.... to see the shoe on the other foot.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 9:08:20 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

I agree that I have an ego. Even a large one at times.


I've often wondered why people seem to think large ego's are a good thing.

As for the bias part: I think we all are from time to time..Can't help it even if you try. All a person can do is to keep it to a minimum. Along with ego's


Good question.  (I would like to point out that I gave no value judgment on it, in my words above.)

I think the confusion is between "hubris" and "confident self-awareness".

When "you" has a strong ego, that's hubris.

When "I" have a strong ego, that's simply confidence. 

Firm




Please note the generic use of the words "you" and "I"


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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 9:11:09 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

When "you" has a strong ego, that's hubris.

When "I" have a strong ego, that's simply confidence.

Firm


I see your point.

I wanted to add this: I didn't think you were necassarily attacking LA before (To be truthful I didn't read ALL of your posts to her either). My comments were more inline with...You seemed to take it personal that she disagreed with you..Maybe I misread what you said but you seemed to admit that.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 5/2/2010 9:20:09 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 9:45:33 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The point overall, the one sticking in people's craws, is the false dichotomy of describing experience only in terms of science vs. religion. As Firm pointed out early on, we have religious scientists, so that notion is already suspect. But just as we have people who see anything not conservative as liberal, when in fact there is a world of nuance outside of the artificial left/right paradigm, so too does the science/religion lens distort reality, denying a wealth of experience beyond that constraint. That's not to say religion doesn't unreasonably go after science at times--it does. But buying into that divide doesn't make a debater smarter or less culpable--just gullible, and equally not thinking freely.


Damn well stated, MusicMystery.




yeh that sounded really good on paper.  at least until someone who thinks more freely then him comes along.  Then its a different story.


_____________________________

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 10:58:28 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline 		I'm not sure the whole false dichotomy thing really works here. I feel as if religiously capitalized individuals would be a little too enthusiastic about this conclusion.

I'd argue more radically that all the mystical, transcendental feelings of infinity and onward () could also be expressed and experienced, to the same effect, within the coordinates of science. In other words, science, in addition to being science proper, can also, in a very separate capacity, be religion as well, for those who so desire.

My critical point is that science itself should always be contested, precisely for not being science. Here is, somewhat abstractly, why I want to reject calling the matter a false dichotomy. There is a very essential structural difference that cannot be reduced, namely, that science is never really science, there is this sort of irreducible gap, whereas religion is always religion.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 11:08:09 PM   
Dubbelganger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

You admittedly didn't even go to college. What do you know about the qualifications of a scientist, true or not, and why should your opinion be considered over someone who is an expert in the field?

Expert in the field of what? Conjecture? I didn't know I needed college to learn that? It's evident in everyday life.


No, expert in a field of science. If I want to know something about science, I prefer to listen to the experts. You were laughing because scientists said that some were greater and some were lesser. I think they are better qualified to make that determination than you are. But if you can offer a definition of a scientist that is different than what they themselves use, then let's hear it. I'm all ears.


Appeal to authority is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement is correct because  the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative.

Firm

Where is brainiacsub making an Appeal to Authority?

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/2/2010 11:29:50 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger

Where is brainiacsub making an Appeal to Authority?



Go back to pages 5 and 6, and Google Peter Atkins.

Firm


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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/3/2010 12:00:41 AM   
brainiacsub


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger

Where is brainiacsub making an Appeal to Authority?



Go back to pages 5 and 6, and Google Peter Atkins.

Firm



Firm, you are grasping. I was making an argument for meritocracy. That is not that same thing as appeal to authority. You are trying to tell me that all opinions have equal weight? I was saying that when it comes to science, the opinions of a scientist hold more weight than those of someone not formally trained in matters of science. If you had a question about music, whose opinion would you value more, mine or Tim's? That doesn't mean that you accept that Tim must be correct, just that his opinion should be of more value than mine because of his expertise. Even the dumbest people reading this thread would never accuse me of reason by defective induction. C'mon Firm, you aren't beig fair.

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