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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/7/2010 12:44:50 PM   
youngsubgeoff


Posts: 900
Joined: 9/25/2007
From: The Asylum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
(Having a cranky day, I guess! )


And this is different from any other day because?

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/7/2010 1:03:21 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

The "thanks for sharing" kind of response sounds awfully passive-agressive and sarcastic to me, like "Well bless your little heart." Depending on their tone and expression, it would feel to me like a direct attempt to shut off communication, rather than encourage it. I'd probably try to discuss it further - the communication issue itself, not the activity that prompted it, and find out what was going on, what they meant by it, if they were just trying to tease me, or whatever. "Oh, really?" doesn't seem quite as strong in that direction, so I probably would have just backed off and let them make the next move. In general, I'm pretty direct, open, and honest in communicating my needs and desires, but I think it's very reasonable and understandable for someone to feel shy about talking that directly about it. I haven't always been able to communicate this well about things, it took time and also learning about what I wanted. It still can feel a bit difficult to bring it up, especially if it is important to me. Everyone is different though, so it's quite possible that the people who you've used that strategy with do find it helpful in being more direct. I'm not interested in focusing on whose fault it is that either person's needs aren't being met, or that communication isn't as effective as it could be. I think it's better to focus on how *to* meet both people's needs, and find lines of communication that work in the present, for people as they are in the moment, rather than holding to an abstract ideal.

Actually, when I've been dominant toward someone, a little shyness and uncertainty and nervousness about bringing up something they want can be rather hot, and push my protective buttons.

Anda, you know that I always love hearing about your point of view.  However, in this case, the first thought that occurs to Me about the subject is that I'm too old for this shit.

While I might be more tolerant of someone new to Me, who is still finding their way, I'm looking at this more from the perspective of an established dynamic.  We're not talking about new play partners here, where someone might still be fumbling around in how to interact.  We're talking about (supposedly) grown ups who are going to be more successful if they communicate properly.  How many years is that supposed to take?  Why is it that, in this supposed 'community' where we are going to preach the gospel of communication, we are so ready to accept any excuse or reason for people not to talk to each other?

If anybody has gotten to the point of calling Me "Mistress" and they are MY submissive, we should be past all of that.  Multiple years of experience should preclude it.


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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/7/2010 1:13:12 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Ya know Pact, I am not a Mistress.... really...::)

But pretty much everything you type is spot on and  applies across gender

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 5/7/2010 1:14:10 PM >

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/8/2010 2:44:14 AM   
MistressRouge


Posts: 876
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Birmingham West Midlands UK
Status: offline 		I dont see it as manipulative, I see it as a suggestion.

My slave suggested stinging nettles, the other day, he suffered deliciously.

I would rather be approachable, and I have no problem with My slave's forwarding suggestions, sometime I say yes sometimes no.

My decision always

< Message edited by MistressRouge -- 5/8/2010 2:45:05 AM >

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/8/2010 6:35:05 AM   
JessicaSavage


Posts: 22
Joined: 4/23/2010
Status: offline 		I agree 110% with MGA and LH.  I just say "Oh yeah?  How's that workin' out for you?"  LMao.  Then I laugh and tell everyone I know about it.  Genuine communication is meaningless to Me.  I only do this for My own gratification and to amuse My friends lMao.  High fives.

(in reply to MistressOfGa)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/8/2010 8:37:47 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		LP and LH, I think it has to do with the demographics of the people we've played with or been involved with. I've never felt that anyone was manipulating me or being sneaky, and if someone did give me that impression, I would address it very directly, without being snarky. If they continued, I would stop playing with them if we were casual playpartners. If we were in a relationship, I would let them know that their behaviour was unacceptable, but would probably give them another chance.

I've been involved with a few people who were open-minded nillas, or who had fantasised about kink, or engaged in it *very* lightly occasionally, but didn't have much experience. So, some of them were genuinely shy or inexperienced, so had difficulty in expressing their desires at first. Mostly our desires have been pretty compatible, and they didn't ask for or hint at anything that I had expressed any disinterest or dislike in.

My submissive playpartner is pretty experienced. While we were chatting over coffee, shortly after we'd started playing, she wistfully mentioned that needles make her fly more than anything else. It wasn't *quite* coming out and asking directly, but I just took it as an opportunity for *me* to be blunt. I told her that I'd only taken one needleplay class, several years before. I was open to giving it a try, but only if I could take a class, or co-top her with someone who was experienced with needles first. She accepted that, didn't nag, and coordinated the logistics for a private class with a needleplay Top who she has played with.

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/8/2010 8:43:23 AM   
JhonDean


Posts: 84
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
quote:

no blame game.

In all you have written in response to this thread there is nothing more profound than your closing comment. Indeed it is not about blame, it is about identifying a problem, creating a solution and implementing it.

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/8/2010 10:13:05 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Geoff: SASSMONKEY!!

JessicaSavage---I don't want to give the impression that I am ALLL about me, and I don't think my friends MoGa and LP do, either. We ARE just to old for this shit. All three of us are not of the mind that the sub has no voice, we just hate that sneaky stuff. You want? Ask nicely, in the accepted manner. If the answer is NO, then STFU, or accept the alternatives that MIGHT be offered.

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/8/2010 10:43:51 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JhonDean

quote:

no blame game.

In all you have written in response to this thread there is nothing more profound than your closing comment. Indeed it is not about blame, it is about identifying a problem, creating a solution and implementing it.


This actually brings up a couple of questions. Is it a blame game when a dominant determines for herself that a submissive is manipulating or trying to? Or is it an actual assessment of a behavior pattern or a way of functioning for that person that gives cause for the assessment? Is it blame or assessment?

When I speak of the blame game, I am talking about someone who cannot see their own fault in something and blame or find reasons to blame, another person.

The question of the op is basically; is it manipulation or shyness/insecurity? Shyness and insecurity in my opinion doesn't manifest to appear as hints. There is nothing wrong with being shy and everyone has insecurities at some point in life. To see those as something to demean isn't okay in my opinion. Why give shyness and insecurity a bad name by adding to it that the person is manipulative? Being shy or insecure doesn't mean that a person who is shy or insecure will be manipulative. Manipulation is a different thing altogether.

Manipulation takes many forms and cannot be covered in one posting. Manipulation is a means that someone uses to get their way and often times will include some of the following; deceit, dishonor, lack of ethics, respect for the other person and pushing someone to do something they wouldn't otherwise do because the manipulator wishes for it to be done. I wouldn't categorize these things within the scope of shyness or insecurity.

Another question that I can see here is whether someone who is manipulative, shy or insecure can be dealt with and how much it takes to deal with these things? I do believe that shyness and insecurity can be dealt with in a number of ways depending on the person. However, manipulation that can come with shyness and insecurity, but doesn't always, can be far more complicated simply because of where the motive comes from and the lacks of respect for the other person involved that the manipulator clearly has, seeing as though they are not thinking of the other person and only of themselves and their will. They could not respect the person they wish to manipulate (maneuver) or they wouldn't be trying to manipulate them for self will. (Unless it is an agreed upon dynamic that has been discussed between the people involved.)

So while I would work with someone who is shy or insecure, I will not work with someone who is manipulative. There can be honesty in shyness or insecurity. I don't believe there is a whole lot of honesty in manipulation.



< Message edited by Lockit -- 5/8/2010 10:50:26 AM >

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(in reply to JhonDean)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/8/2010 10:49:09 AM   
JhonDean


Posts: 84
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
quote:

JessicaSavage---I don't want to give the impression that I am ALLL about me, and I don't think my friends MoGa and LP do, either. We ARE just to old for this shit. All three of us are not of the mind that the sub has no voice, we just hate that sneaky stuff. You want? Ask nicely, in the accepted manner. If the answer is NO, then STFU, or accept the alternatives that MIGHT be offered.

I do not disagree with you, in fact, I have found in all of life there are many things and people that are not right for me and removing myself from them is the solution. Once again, identify the problem, create the solution and implement it.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/8/2010 11:05:02 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I do not do well with the shy. I am pretty up front about that. Oddly, my closest friend says that she is shy, and I do attract shy people, because they use me as their human bulldozer to shield them! I'm okay with that. I agree with Lockit, in that I see shyness and perhaps the lack of self-confidence as a totally different thing from manipulative, sneaky behaviour.

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/8/2010 11:13:13 AM   
youngsubgeoff


Posts: 900
Joined: 9/25/2007
From: The Asylum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Geoff: SASSMONKEY!!


Correction: Im a Sexy Sassmonkey tyvm (just ask MoGa)

-doing the sexy dance-



_____________________________

You dont need to question my sanity, I can assure you Im quite mad. Its ok though, all the best people are

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/9/2010 6:02:39 AM   
JhonDean


Posts: 84
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I do not do well with the shy. I am pretty up front about that. Oddly, my closest friend says that she is shy, and I do attract shy people, because they use me as their human bulldozer to shield them! I'm okay with that. I agree with Lockit, in that I see shyness and perhaps the lack of self-confidence as a totally different thing from manipulative, sneaky behaviour.

I often describe myself as shy for lack of a better word but my ever-widening stream of friends and associates belie that term.
I view myself as reserved, many of my friends and associates view me as reticent and some see me as arrogant but I have never been accused of being manipulative. Yet I do it all the time, controlling and influencing the how when and where my work is shown and to whom, is personally advantageous and what others may call good business practices is in essence manipulative at its very core.
Lady Hibiscus, in response to your response, I do not have wants needs or desires that are not brought the attention of the person I respect enough to share them with. However, if my wants, need or desires were acts or occurrences that were not pleasurable for her I would not want them enacted in the first place and would find very little value in them if they were done simply to accommodate.

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/9/2010 12:32:02 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		I would not dismiss what he says at all. I would acknowledge his comment, discuss the interest and probe. I'd want to know how long he's been 'bent' towards that particular interest or need; I'd want to know how deeply rooted this particular interest is; I'd want to know how much actual experience, if any, he has with the subject. Then I'd make it clear that I'll take it under advisement and let him know that we will incorporate his interest into a scene of My choosing, when the mood strikes Me to do so. If it's a deal breaker for Me, the time to tell him is now. TM

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/10/2010 3:28:48 AM   
JhonDean


Posts: 84
Joined: 3/26/2010
Status: offline
quote:

If it's a deal breaker for Me, the time to tell him is now. TM

I so agree, when one, (Submissive or dominant) finds their interests diametrically opposing the interests of another, especially, in principle, the brutality of truth serves both equally.

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/10/2010 7:47:40 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JessicaSavage

I agree 110% with MGA and LH.  I just say "Oh yeah?  How's that workin' out for you?"  LMao.  Then I laugh and tell everyone I know about it.  Genuine communication is meaningless to Me. I only do this for My own gratification and to amuse My friends lMao. High fives.


Jessica,
Wow. I did not want to give the impression that I am like this at all. It is not all about me. I care very deeply about my subs wants and needs (Two separate things). However, I have to know what those wants/needs are before anything can be done about it.

Like I said, I am a "bottom line" woman. I like to get to the core of the matter, quickly. Probably comes from an ex husband who simply could not complete a sentence without going a couple trips around the block to get there. It got so bad that all I wanted to say to him was "Get to your point, I can't hear you anymore". If you doubt this, ask Lady Hib how bad it was lol

So I am really put off with the hints. But there is a difference between hinting for something and really not being sure about how to ask for something.

I do have to agree with Lady P, if the sub has gotten so far as to get a collar from me, he should be able to ask me anything. I guess it is the way he asks that bothers me so much.

Bottom line? Genuine Communication.

MoGa

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RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/10/2010 7:49:51 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: youngsubgeoff

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Geoff: SASSMONKEY!!


Correction: Im a Sexy Sassmonkey tyvm (just ask MoGa)

-doing the sexy dance-



lol I love this new self confidence! You wear it well :)

_____________________________





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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/10/2010 8:24:51 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		So, I'm curious if you told him flat-out to stop beating around the bush and ask you directly to let him dress up, if that's what he wanted?

(in reply to MistressOfGa)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Manipulation Or Unsure Of How To Ask? - 5/10/2010 2:42:00 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

So, I'm curious if you told him flat-out to stop beating around the bush and ask you directly to let him dress up, if that's what he wanted?

It may be my program isn't picking up something here, but I'm confused what the question is lol Eeeeks, sorry.

MoGa

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Profile   Post #: 59
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