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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 9:28:36 PM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


You are correct, Bart Ehrman is a great read for anyone interested in further study of this topic. His other works that are pertinent to this thread include Lost Christianities, Jesus, Interrupted, Misquoting Jesus, and The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture. I would also highly recommend "When Jesus Became God" by Richard Rubenstein.

I'll get off the playing field now and happily watch the rest of this game from the sidelines.


Thank you, BA. The Rubenstein book looks particularly interesting. I will follow up on it first chance I get.

ETA... as I understand it, Rubenstein was influential in Pope John's convening of the Vatican Council in 1962.

Rubenstein, as a Jewish theologin, has his own reasons for writing this book. A serious student of theology would have legitimate questions about some of his conclusions, but as a first read for a Christian exploring the alternatives to the literal interpretation of the gospels taught in Sunday School, this book is a good start. Enjoy.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 5:09:55 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You are mistaken in thinking Jesus tried to convert the Jews to another religion, Rule. No such thing. Jesus kept the Sabbath.
He was a Jew thru and thru. I know you have that whole circumcision fascination going on.... but wrong!

He came down out of the Galilee to preach an apocalyptic message.... the end of the world was at hand. The Son of Man would descend from the clouds and rule the world in the new order. The disciples would each rule one of the twelve tribes of Isreal presumably. The meek would inherit the earth, the first shall be last, the last shall be first, yatta, yatta.

Hate to step in here but Jesus did not preach that the end of the world was at hand.  He never talked about decending from the clouds to rule the world.  That came from John of Pathos, not Jesus.


"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power." Mark 8:38-9.1

"..... and then they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory....Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place." Mark 13:24-27,30

Mark quoting Jesus, Eyes. Seems very eschatological to me.


Thanks for reminding me of these verses!  Mark was convinced Jesus was supernatural so it makes sense that these quotes were in Mark.  I see no evidence that Jesus was supernatural.

But see, I have never read any Bible as word-by-word a literal voice of the Great Spirit as there are so many different texts.  I have read the four gospels and did not come away with a sense that Jesus was doing a "Repent for the end is at hand" fire and brimstone.

The Kingdom of Heaven is something that could be experienced in that age and our present age if anyone were really willing.  That was the key to the message for me.  I desire peace so I find it.  I prefer happiness so I choose it.

I see there are far more people who would rather be right than to be happy. 

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 8:02:38 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You are mistaken in thinking Jesus tried to convert the Jews to another religion, Rule. No such thing. Jesus kept the Sabbath.
He was a Jew thru and thru. I know you have that whole circumcision fascination going on.... but wrong!

He came down out of the Galilee to preach an apocalyptic message.... the end of the world was at hand. The Son of Man would descend from the clouds and rule the world in the new order. The disciples would each rule one of the twelve tribes of Isreal presumably. The meek would inherit the earth, the first shall be last, the last shall be first, yatta, yatta.

Hate to step in here but Jesus did not preach that the end of the world was at hand.  He never talked about decending from the clouds to rule the world.  That came from John of Pathos, not Jesus.


"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power." Mark 8:38-9.1

"..... and then they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory....Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place." Mark 13:24-27,30

Mark quoting Jesus, Eyes. Seems very eschatological to me.


Thanks for reminding me of these verses!  Mark was convinced Jesus was supernatural so it makes sense that these quotes were in Mark.  I see no evidence that Jesus was supernatural.

But see, I have never read any Bible as word-by-word a literal voice of the Great Spirit as there are so many different texts.  I have read the four gospels and did not come away with a sense that Jesus was doing a "Repent for the end is at hand" fire and brimstone.

The Kingdom of Heaven is something that could be experienced in that age and our present age if anyone were really willing.  That was the key to the message for me.  I desire peace so I find it.  I prefer happiness so I choose it.

I see there are far more people who would rather be right than to be happy. 


On an allegorical level, I quite agree with you, eyes. You make an excellent point.

In seeking to understand the historical Jesus I find the case made by Bart Ehrman that Jesus was an apocolyptic, world-ender, failed preacher very persuasive.

We each have our perspectives and I certainly respect yours. It is just not my interest. By that I mean I am not seeking the Kingdom of Heaven here or anywhere else. I am content with my mortal nature.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/8/2010 8:08:39 AM >

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 8:05:38 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


You are correct, Bart Ehrman is a great read for anyone interested in further study of this topic. His other works that are pertinent to this thread include Lost Christianities, Jesus, Interrupted, Misquoting Jesus, and The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture. I would also highly recommend "When Jesus Became God" by Richard Rubenstein.

I'll get off the playing field now and happily watch the rest of this game from the sidelines.


Thank you, BA. The Rubenstein book looks particularly interesting. I will follow up on it first chance I get.

ETA... as I understand it, Rubenstein was influential in Pope John's convening of the Vatican Council in 1962.

Rubenstein, as a Jewish theologin, has his own reasons for writing this book. A serious student of theology would have legitimate questions about some of his conclusions, but as a first read for a Christian exploring the alternatives to the literal interpretation of the gospels taught in Sunday School, this book is a good start. Enjoy.


Thank you. I have placed it into my Amazon queue after reading samples. I am eager to receive it.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 9:34:27 AM   
belladevine


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Did it ever occur to any body that JESUS never had a church.

He protested in the Jewish temple that he was born and raised to.

He worked and he walked (like a man should).

Jesus spoke to the people that he met on his journey through life.

Jesus was a wise man and he helped the people that accepted his help.

The story of Jesus is not complex. Religious leaders try to confuse people and keep them ignorant.

The catholic religion and mormons, jews, christians, and muslims all follow the teachings of Abraham.....NOT JESUS.

The teachings of Abraham are lies.

Anybody that does not denounce an evil deed, condones the evil deed.

Jesus stood up to evil MEN and they killed him for it.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 11:24:51 AM   
belladevine


Posts: 437
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I thinks Jesus said "walk with Me" and I say,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu15Ou-jKM0&feature=related

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 11:38:05 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Oh God said to Abraham, “Kill me a son”
Abe says, “Man, you must be puttin’ me on”
God say, “No.” Abe say, “What?”
God say, “You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin’ you better run”
Well Abe says, “Where do you want this killin’ done?”
God says, “Out on Highway 61”



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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 11:58:14 AM   
belladevine


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........If, you don't stomp out loud, then you are disturbing the PEACE.

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 12:15:06 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline 		Exactly what I was thinking!

Except I would have Jesus give Paul one hell of a noogie first!
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I think the conversation would go like this:

Jesus:  Paul why did you have to go and turn my message into a religion?  I hate religions!  Wasn't it enough to just teach people how to love each other?  I mean really Paul, that is what I was trying to get folks to understand.

Paul: Oh Jesus!  I'm so sorry!  I had no idea it would turn out like this!

Jesus:  I forgive you.  But it's gonna take a really long time to fix this mess you made.  Just sayin.

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 12:46:09 PM   
thornhappy


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Status: offline 		A most excellent book.
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Reference: Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews by James Carroll.

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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 12:48:53 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

A most excellent book.
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Reference: Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews by James Carroll.



Cool. I've heard great things about it, but haven't read it.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 1:00:45 PM   
belladevine


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I don't know if that is an excellent book. I haven't read it.

I think that finding out the truth about ancient history should be sought out through writings closest to the time and closest to the mouth that said the words.

I read old texts and keep in touch with recent archeology finds and have taught myself to read the associated symbolism of the times.

In ancient times things were kept secret for many reasons, much like today.

I like to do my own research rather than "trust" some body elses.

I don't know everything nor do I ever profess to and I am a careful listener.

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 1:48:24 PM   
belladevine


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I think that the past is in the past reguardless of the truth.

What most people fail to recognize is that NOW is the single most important time in history.

If people still can't think for themselves after all this time, I think the future is bleak.

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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 2:01:35 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine



I think that the past is in the past reguardless of the truth.

What most people fail to recognize is that NOW is the single most important time in history.

If people still can't think for themselves after all this time, I think the future is bleak.



second thread in a row where, all i can think of to say is, well bless your heart hon...

maybe ill getta 3 fer...

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yep

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 2:33:08 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine


I don't know if that is an excellent book. I haven't read it.

I think that finding out the truth about ancient history should be sought out through writings closest to the time and closest to the mouth that said the words.

I read old texts and keep in touch with recent archeology finds and have taught myself to read the associated symbolism of the times.

In ancient times things were kept secret for many reasons, much like today.

I like to do my own research rather than "trust" some body elses.

I don't know everything nor do I ever profess to and I am a careful listener.


Well, I agree. You make a good point. Contemporaneous records are favored.

That's why historians place such high value on letters and diaries from the Civil War era for example.

In the future I imagine today's Blogs and emails will serve that purpose.

But then I was thinking that the historian has to be congnizent of biases in the available material even if it were contemporaneous.

Imagine if some poor historian in 4010 (as an extreme example) were studying the HealthCare controversy of 2010 and the only surviving contemporary records of the controversy were the archives of MSNBC News and Fox News. The future historian would have a terrible task sorting out the biases, I think.

The task is made more difficult for the Biblical scholar because of the lack of literacy during the time of Jesus.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/8/2010 2:34:58 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 6:20:50 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline 		He doesn't pull his writing out of his ass.  He uses source material.
quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine


I don't know if that is an excellent book. I haven't read it.

I think that finding out the truth about ancient history should be sought out through writings closest to the time and closest to the mouth that said the words.

I read old texts and keep in touch with recent archeology finds and have taught myself to read the associated symbolism of the times.

In ancient times things were kept secret for many reasons, much like today.

I like to do my own research rather than "trust" some body elses.

I don't know everything nor do I ever profess to and I am a careful listener.

(in reply to belladevine)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/8/2010 10:55:40 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Do you deny that you said "they condemn themselves?"

So what? Anyone who goes out into the rain without protection condemns himself to get wet, anyone who has a picnic on an anthill condemns himself to have his picnic ruined by ants, anyone who gets into a public transport vehicle without a valid ticket condemns himself to be fined, anyone who puts his fingers into a live electric outlet condemns himself to be electrocuted, subs that send rude e-mails to dommes condemn themselves to be blocked. Actions and choices have consequences; it is as simple as that. Populations that circumcise the penis of their males after some generations will have an increased ratio of inherited genetic diseases - as well as other negative effects.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Do you deny that you said "they condemn themselves?" Do you deny that you called the Jews "Evil?"

Do you refer to this paragraph in my post 67 in this thread?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
By my definition any population that circumcises the penis of their males is damned, as evidenced by their having five to six times as many progeny dying from inherited diseases as indigenous European Christian populations. It does not have anything to do with scripture. That Paul and apparently Thomas and Jesus and the Greeks that fought the Maccabees also recognized that circumcision is associated with evil is independent corroboration of my own conclusion.

Where do I here state that Jews are evil? It is especially Paul who makes the distinction between being circumcised of flesh and being circumcised of heart, implying that the former are evil and the latter are good. He knew both populations and he knew their nature. He was qualified to judge.

But what is evil?
Let me ask you these questions:

Is it good or evil to remove a healthy eye from someone - or even from an animal - without their consent - or even with their consent?

Is it good or evil to drown a woman in a well?

Is it good or evil to cut the throat of a woman?

Is it good or evil to stone a woman to death?

Is it good or evil to put a woman on fire?

Is it good or evil to throw acid into the face of a woman?

Is it good or evil to stone a woman?

It may be that you consider none of such acts evil. Neither do most populations that have males with mutilated penises consider such acts evil - otherwise they would not commit such or similar atrocities.

Here is the thing, though: I consider such acts evil.




< Message edited by Rule -- 5/8/2010 10:56:25 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/9/2010 10:37:31 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Is it good or evil to stone a woman to death?

Is it good or evil to stone a woman?

I belatedly noticed that I repeated one of my questions. Instead I had intended to ask this question:

Is it good or evil to bury a woman alive?

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/9/2010 11:22:14 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

In the future I imagine today's Blogs and emails will serve that purpose.



About that - online media are paradoxically more robust and more fragile. They can be saved and shared infinitely, or deleted with a keystroke, depending on circumstance. If our civilization goes down the tubes - not that I think it will, but if - the record is more fragile than ever. Right now, we're good, but we're in transition to ever more ephemeral storage. I worry sometimes that, when historians look back on us, there won't be any record.


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bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/9/2010 11:41:35 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		So what? you ask. I will tell you “so what.”

Your trivial defenses for condemning the Jews and all their progeny through genetic disease and assigning them the theological status of Evil is an outrage because your statements and your mindset perpetuate the long historical lie of Jewish racial inferiority and the long history of persecution that began when Nero blamed the Christian Jews for the fires that were set in Rome.

The historic persecution continued by the Christian churches lead to the unimaginable horrors of the industrial liquidation of the six million in the Shoah. Twenty years after the closing of Auschwitz Popes John 23, Paul 6, and John Paul 2 began an attempt to reconcile the Catholic Church with the Jews.

Your self-absorbed, pitiful, little nit-picky defenses trivialize the death and suffering of the six million as well as the honest attempts made by the Church to establish an interfaith harmony.

Your repeated Jew-baiting on these Boards first from behind the veil of the science of genetics and then by reference to quotations from scriptures is a disgusting and despicable act. None of the banal defenses you mount can wash away my contempt for the blame-the-victim filth you have expressed. Your repeated remarks are reprehensible in the extreme.

I can only repeat in sad and humble fashion the words that Emile Zola wrote in an open letter to the President of France during the persecution of the Jew, Alfred Dreyfus…. “J’accuse.”


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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 140
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