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RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 10:08:50 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
It was Paul's intent to travel as far as Spain

Now that is interesting to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The Son of Man and the End Times were expressed in the Book of Daniel with which Jesus probably had some acquaintance.

Probably? Some acquaintance? Them disciples and Jesus knew the Old Testament from the first to the last page and backwards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
They both, John and Jesus, ended up badly as we know.

That is the modern perspective. They would disagree, I am sure.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 10:10:48 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
This why you will some day rule us all.

It is not only your divine intelligence but they way you will take the time to kindly address those that you know you could easily be crushing like a bug.

All hail Rule!!! All hail Rule!!! All hail Rule!!! All hail Rule!!!

lol.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 10:18:35 AM   
belladevine


Posts: 437
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I would like to comment on the attire that black jesus is wearing.

Do you notice the flame depicted on his shirt?

Jesus was a wise man. He was visited shortly after his birth by Magi, also known as Wise Men from the East.

If any one has done their homework on this subject they would know that Jesus was influenced by these men.

I believe that these men were teaching the earlier religion of Zoroaster.

This religion has a very specific ritual called the "kusti" ritual. I believe these teachings were againt the wicked ways of Abraham and circumcision.


http://www.themystica.org/mythical-folk/articles/ahriman.html

http://www.avesta.org/ritual/ritualk.htm

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 11:12:46 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

I understand evolution theory and genetics; that suffices. I do not need to understand the milieu at the time to comprehend Paul's unequivocal opposition against circumcision: the Jews who were circumcised of the flesh were evil, whereas the Gentile who were circumcised of the heart were good. It had nothing to do with converting pagans to Christianity. Christianity as such did not exist at the time. Paul still considered himself to be a Jew.


It is revealing of your twisted philosophy that you do not see the inconsistency in your comments. On the one hand you understand evolution theory and genetics while on the other you say circumcised Jews are Evil and condemned (by whom?) to suffer higher incidents of genetic disease. Are you suggesting then that the hand of god reached in and "adjusted" the genome of Jews so they suffer? You can't have it both ways. Either it is a genetic happenstance or if Evil it is punishment meted by god. You mix science and theology too loosely and to suit your little thesis. Your position is idiotic and smells of bigotry.

Talk like yours too easily devalues a group. Once a group is devalued, its members are more readily lead to the gas chambers with a self-serving rationale by their persecutor. Just my humble observation on past history.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 11:23:33 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine

I would like to comment on the attire that black jesus is wearing.

Do you notice the flame depicted on his shirt?

Jesus was a wise man. He was visited shortly after his birth by Magi, also known as Wise Men from the East.

If any one has done their homework on this subject they would know that Jesus was influenced by these men.

I believe that these men were teaching the earlier religion of Zoroaster.

This religion has a very specific ritual called the "kusti" ritual. I believe these teachings were againt the wicked ways of Abraham and circumcision.


http://www.themystica.org/mythical-folk/articles/ahriman.html

http://www.avesta.org/ritual/ritualk.htm


The visit of the wisemen is reported in only one Gospel. Another describes the visitors as shepherds. Perhaps the baby was influenced by them as well. Or maybe the two groups morphed together and confused the poor child. Or maybe Joseph (god's cuckhold) and Mary had a room in the Holiday Inn. Speculation, speculation.

Why is Abraham considered wicked? Was Jesus circumcized? You betcha. At one time or another at least ten diffeerent churches in Europe claimed to possess the holy foreskin. I believe it is hidden away in the Vatican at the moment so I expect god to strike the Vatican down shortly for possessing the Evil remnant. Unless of course Germany bails them out with a loan in return for the foreskin as collateral.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to belladevine)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 11:27:45 AM   
belladevine


Posts: 437
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Circumcision is a Human Rights Violation.

I call circumcision wicked because it reduces man to a slave, chattle, cattle>>>>>>NO HUMAN RIGHTS

To have intelligent chioces is what enables a man to be wise. Stealing a childs rigt to choose is WRONG.

NO CHOICE>>>NO RIGHTS

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 11:51:34 AM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


[...]
You may know a bit about evolution/genetics but you know dick about Paul/Jesus and the origins of the early church. On the latter topic you are totally ignorant. You have cherry-picked quotations from scripture and fashioned them to justifiy your own narrow, bigoted assumptions. That is the mark of an idiot not the scientist you have claimed to be in other threads. A scientist would be very interested in historical/literary analysis of written material, including the milieu in which the writing occurred. You asked for references; I gave you references. It is pointless to have a dialogue with someone who suffers such tunnel vision as you do.


Vincent, you rock man! As someone who was formally educated in both science (Molecular Biology) and Theology I appreciate your perspective more than you know. Some of the recent threads here that try to bridge the gap between science and religion, or religion and theology have been frustrating to say the least. This one is no different, but it is amusing to read. As soon as someone proclaims that Jesus claimed to be God or that the Bible contains prophecy, you have already lost the debate.

You are correct, Bart Ehrman is a great read for anyone interested in further study of this topic. His other works that are pertinent to this thread include Lost Christianities, Jesus, Interrupted, Misquoting Jesus, and The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture. I would also highly recommend "When Jesus Became God" by Richard Rubenstein.

I'll get off the playing field now and happily watch the rest of this game from the sidelines.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 12:38:44 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
It is revealing of your twisted philosophy that you do not see the inconsistency in your comments.

And pray what is my twisted philosophy precisely? I am asking because you self-proclaim yourself an expert on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
On the one hand you understand evolution theory and genetics while on the other you say circumcised Jews are Evil and condemned (by whom?) to suffer higher incidents of genetic disease.

Umm, Paul opposed circumcision.
And you put the cart before the horse: From populations with circumcised penises having five to six times as much inherited lethal diseases as the indigenous Christian European population, it is obvious that the former are accursed - or would you call such populations blessed?

By whom? If you have to ask that question, you clearly demonstrate to be ignorant about the specifics of my twisted philosophy. Alas, you are clearly a fake expert on my twisted philosophy.

The answer: They have condemned themselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Are you suggesting then that the hand of god reached in and "adjusted" the genome of Jews so they suffer?

See? Your self-proclaimed expertness on my twisted philosophy is completely fake. If you truly understood my twisted philosophy, you would not have to ask the question for you would know the answer.

The answer: the rate of deleterious mutations is in all populations the same (unless it concerns populations that live on radioactive mountains - but even then the rate might be the same).

So if you want to go theological, then: No, the hand of god reaches in and "adjusts" the genome of all populations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You can't have it both ways.

This remark demonstrates that you do not comprehend the spiritual and its relation to the physical universe. Indeed I can have it both ways, the spiritual and the physical, like the sea and the land, like an elementary particle that is both a particle and a wave, like yin and yang.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Either it is a genetic happenstance or if Evil it is punishment meted by god.

This remark shows how philosophically limited you are.
The occurrence of deleterious mutations is genetic happenstance - and if one wants to go theological, all happenstance is caused by the Divine on the behest of whatever pagan god.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You mix science and theology too loosely and to suit your little thesis. Your position is idiotic and smells of bigotry.

What was my little thesis again?
And what was my position again? I ask because you have demonstrated to be a fake self-proclaimed expert on my twisted philosophy, so I have reason to doubt that you know what my little thesis and my position are.

And who are you to judge that I mix science and theology too loosely? You do not even know that it is possible to have something both ways.

Anyway, when a fake self-proclaimed expert on my twisted philosophy calls my position idiotic and smelling of bigotry, then I say: "Thank you for the compliments".

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Talk like yours too easily devalues a group.

What group does my talk devalue? I am trying to save one and a quarter billion people from the fate they and their ancestors have condemned themselves to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Once a group is devalued, its members are more readily lead to the gas chambers with a self-serving rationale by their persecutor. Just my humble observation on past history.

Perhaps you ought to stop observing past history, for you suck at it. It was ignorance that motivated the eugenics programs. If the eugenics proponents of the early twentieth century had known that all Jewish problems stem from their circumcision practice, they might have elected to deal with the problem in another manner.

It is you, promoting ignorance, who by association after the fact is complicit in the genocide on the Jews during the second world war.


< Message edited by Rule -- 5/7/2010 12:42:05 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 1:19:06 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

By whom? If you have to ask that question, you clearly demonstrate to be ignorant about the specifics of my twisted philosophy. Alas, you are clearly a fake expert on my twisted philosophy.

The answer: They have condemned themselves.


Ah yes, there it is. Revealed! The same ugly answer the early church had for condemnation of the christ killers.

How despicable your melding of racial and spiritual inferiority. It becomes so easy then to dispatch a human as the Conquistadores did in the Americas, the Nazis did in Europe, or to keep him in chains as the Plantation Owners did in the Southern Slave Power. Dehumanizing the victim and blaming him for his own inferiority. Tis vomit inducing.

That is the core of your morally detestable philosophy. You may nitpik as a desperate defense but the odor lingers in each message you write. It stinks now as it has across the history of western man.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/7/2010 1:28:55 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 1:42:40 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Vincent, you rock man! As someone who was formally educated in both science (Molecular Biology) and Theology I appreciate your perspective more than you know. Some of the recent threads here that try to bridge the gap between science and religion, or religion and theology have been frustrating to say the least. This one is no different, but it is amusing to read. As soon as someone proclaims that Jesus claimed to be God or that the Bible contains prophecy, you have already lost the debate.

You are correct, Bart Ehrman is a great read for anyone interested in further study of this topic. His other works that are pertinent to this thread include Lost Christianities, Jesus, Interrupted, Misquoting Jesus, and The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture. I would also highly recommend "When Jesus Became God" by Richard Rubenstein.

I'll get off the playing field now and happily watch the rest of this game from the sidelines.


This is open ended still, the truth will reveal itself.

Because some other ding dang darn person wrote something down does not mean it is true. Or providing a link to what the person said validates it as truth/fact. Truth can come from the darndest places and things we thought we once understood may reveal themselves entirely away from previous truth. I am not discounting the written word, it is a living thing after all. There is a huge amount of value to loads of things folks have jotted down with ease or great struggle. Much of the most gorgeous literature in the world has been destroyed through out time.

Notice the polarities. Who is writing these educated books? Mostly folks with the same propensities, same polarities.

The image of the tweedy erudite sitting around puffing pipes while the flames pop in the club fireplace convivally thwacking each other on the back for each other's fine efforts and pov's. Slap slap, well done ol chap. All the books and citing in the world will not disprove, for example, that there is prophetic bits in the Bible.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to brainiacsub)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 1:52:24 PM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
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From: Tampa, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You are mistaken in thinking Jesus tried to convert the Jews to another religion, Rule. No such thing. Jesus kept the Sabbath.
He was a Jew thru and thru. I know you have that whole circumcision fascination going on.... but wrong!

He came down out of the Galilee to preach an apocalyptic message.... the end of the world was at hand. The Son of Man would descend from the clouds and rule the world in the new order. The disciples would each rule one of the twelve tribes of Isreal presumably. The meek would inherit the earth, the first shall be last, the last shall be first, yatta, yatta.


Hate to step in here but Jesus did not preach that the end of the world was at hand.  He never talked about decending from the clouds to rule the world.  That came from John of Pathos, not Jesus.

When Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven he spoke about it being possible to have that in the moment.  That we humans don't have to wait for some miracle or big bang or coming down from the clouds to have peace here and now.  Jesus was trying to show people that by shifting ones focus, by making small shifts in attitude toward peace with each other, as well as peace with the rest of the world, that "heaven" was possible hear on earth.

Jesus spoke very strongly against religion and how it put so many rules on people that it created stress, strife, distrust, hatred.  He wanted people to be able to think outside the confines of religious law and think more about spiritual growth and peace. 

He said he came to give life and not just life but an abundant life.

I actually have an abundant life. It's way cool.  Oh, and I didn't have to be circumcised either.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 2:31:07 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Ah yes, there it is. Revealed! The same ugly answer the early church had for condemnation of the christ killers.

How despicable your melding of racial and spiritual inferiority. It becomes so easy then to dispatch a human as the Conquistadores did in the Americas, the Nazis did in Europe, or to keep him in chains as the Plantation Owners did in the Southern Slave Power. Dehumanizing the victim and blaming him for his own inferiority. Tis vomit inducing.

That is the core of your morally detestable philosophy. You may nitpik as a desperate defense but the odor lingers in each message you write. It stinks now as it has across the history of western man.

The only smell here is that of your sanctimonious hypocrisy. You are a hypocrite for despite not having the faintest idea what my 'morally detestable philosophy' is about, you pretend that you do know what it is about.

You are on a self-righteous and unwarranted smear campaign. Your allegations have nothing to do with me. You are their single owner. May the God of the Dead judge you according to your merits.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 2:35:26 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
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quote:

As soon as someone proclaims that Jesus claimed to be God or that the Bible contains prophecy, you have already lost the debate.


Well, duh. At that point you know they are ignorant and really whats the point?

Good to see you are still working on that open mindness


_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to brainiacsub)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 2:55:21 PM   
belladevine


Posts: 437
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		vincent,

The Jews killed Jesus, NOT CHRIST.

Look up the definition (if you don't know Greek).

Appearanty, you don't know very much of anything.

A wise man at least know when to keep his stupid mouth shut.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 7:00:42 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Ah yes, there it is. Revealed! The same ugly answer the early church had for condemnation of the christ killers.

How despicable your melding of racial and spiritual inferiority. It becomes so easy then to dispatch a human as the Conquistadores did in the Americas, the Nazis did in Europe, or to keep him in chains as the Plantation Owners did in the Southern Slave Power. Dehumanizing the victim and blaming him for his own inferiority. Tis vomit inducing.

That is the core of your morally detestable philosophy. You may nitpik as a desperate defense but the odor lingers in each message you write. It stinks now as it has across the history of western man.

The only smell here is that of your sanctimonious hypocrisy. You are a hypocrite for despite not having the faintest idea what my 'morally detestable philosophy' is about, you pretend that you do know what it is about.

You are on a self-righteous and unwarranted smear campaign. Your allegations have nothing to do with me. You are their single owner. May the God of the Dead judge you according to your merits.



Smear campaign? Really? Do you deny that you said "they condemn themselves?" Do you deny that you called the Jews "Evil?" So where is the smear?

I will tell you where it is, bro. It is in your own words. And they are despicable!

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 7:20:26 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You are mistaken in thinking Jesus tried to convert the Jews to another religion, Rule. No such thing. Jesus kept the Sabbath.
He was a Jew thru and thru. I know you have that whole circumcision fascination going on.... but wrong!

He came down out of the Galilee to preach an apocalyptic message.... the end of the world was at hand. The Son of Man would descend from the clouds and rule the world in the new order. The disciples would each rule one of the twelve tribes of Isreal presumably. The meek would inherit the earth, the first shall be last, the last shall be first, yatta, yatta.


Hate to step in here but Jesus did not preach that the end of the world was at hand.  He never talked about decending from the clouds to rule the world.  That came from John of Pathos, not Jesus.



"Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power." Mark 8:38-9.1

"..... and then they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory....Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place." Mark 13:24-27,30

Mark quoting Jesus, Eyes. Seems very eschatological to me.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 7:25:20 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


You are correct, Bart Ehrman is a great read for anyone interested in further study of this topic. His other works that are pertinent to this thread include Lost Christianities, Jesus, Interrupted, Misquoting Jesus, and The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture. I would also highly recommend "When Jesus Became God" by Richard Rubenstein.

I'll get off the playing field now and happily watch the rest of this game from the sidelines.


Thank you, BA. The Rubenstein book looks particularly interesting. I will follow up on it first chance I get.

ETA... as I understand it, Rubenstein was influential in Pope John's convening of the Vatican Council in 1962.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/7/2010 7:58:30 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to brainiacsub)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 7:32:40 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream


Notice the polarities. Who is writing these educated books? Mostly folks with the same propensities, same polarities.


Here is the link to Ehrman's webpage. You can research his scholarship credentials yourself, heartcream.

The other scholar I cited was James Carroll, the author of Constantine's Sword. He is a Catholic priest. You may wish to research him as well.



_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 7:55:40 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine

vincent,

The Jews killed Jesus, NOT CHRIST.

Look up the definition (if you don't know Greek).

Appearanty, you don't know very much of anything.

A wise man at least know when to keep his stupid mouth shut.


belladevine, thank you for the "sweet" words. I will not reply with similar crudeness, however.

Allow me to point out this statement from Nostra Aetate published in 1965 by the Vatican Council convened by John 23 and presented to the world by his successor, Paul VI ...........

"True, authorities of the Jews and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ .... still, what happened in His passion cannot be blamed upon all the Jews then living, without distinction, nor against the Jews of today."

The Catholic church took 1965 years to get around to retracting their accusation of deicide.

You can dice it or slice it and look up definitions in any language you wish but you will not exculpate the history of Christianity's treatment of the Jews from some responsibility for the Shoah.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/7/2010 8:17:06 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to belladevine)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Jesus/Paul: A Conversation - 5/7/2010 8:59:56 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I am running through every dead black entertainer that I can think of. God I hope Gary Coleman relinquishes life soon.


I hope you can work Scatman Crothers and Redd Foxx in there.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 120
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