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Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 1:34:45 AM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		I am going to struggle to frame this as a question, I was having a chat yesterday about christianity, I don't know how it got there, I made a joke and they joked back that I must be CofE. I had assumed that meant they went to a progressive church.

However, it got a little deeper and a couple of things came out, the first was the idea that you had to live by the bible, I asked how with so many contradictions, you could know which part to believe. One of the people I was talking to is homophobic and racist. This to me should be the opposite of what you come away from the bible from, and yet it is fairly gendered its hard to know which is the right thing. Even more shocking to me was the belief that both of them had that unless you believed in god and where christian you would go to hell, that means regardless of how good you might be unless you believed the specific doctrine then you are off to roast.

This shocked me because I really didn't know people believed that, I guess it was in the back of my head but not something I had thought about.

So I guess the question is, which is more important being good or the reason you are good, of course it will throw up the question of 'what is good' but thats fine.

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 3:32:01 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Hey gorgeous!
quote:

 
Even more shocking to me was the belief that both of them had that unless you believed in god and where christian you would go to hell, that means regardless of how good you might be unless you believed the specific doctrine then you are off to roast.


It's kind of less complicated than that even.  The crux of it is that you must believe in Jesus and be 'at one' with him before you can be with god.  Does that make sense to you?  Being good doesn't cut it.  But neither does thinking you are being good and also being a christian... that wouldn't cut it with god either - he does dig the arrogence of goodness from what I've read.

A good thing to find out from your friends is if they have done an 'Alpha' course.  That can be really telling on where they stand biblically.

the.dark.

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 3:47:32 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		I have friends who are christians, and are good people. I have friends who are atheist, and are good people. I have friends who are jewish/muslim/hindu/mormon/whatever who are good people. I also know assholes of many belief backgrounds.

I think it boils down to your own personality, regardless of religion. Good people are good people - bad people who show intolerance, hatred and rank stupidity can have any kind of religious belief, and the bible is broad enough for them to find something in there to twist to support their own nasty little opinions. Racism, homophobia, misogeny, intolerance of other religions - any half-smart fuckwit can find something in the bible to support their 'cause'.

I am an atheist, but I do my best to be a good citizen. I try to work within 'do unto others...etc'. Seems to work for me

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 3:53:39 AM   
CynthiaWVirginia


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		LilyoftheValley, there are so many denominations of Christians out there...and we all interpret the Bible differently.  Other Christians' beliefs often shock me.  Religion is a funny thing, isn't it?

I don't know how many groups of us share some of the same holy books, but I know that Jews and Druse have the same God as I do.  What makes me a Christian is not my belief in God...but my faith that my God made a new covenant with us through the sacrifice of his son to ransom us back.  Christian means a follower of Christ, and an acknowledgement that he is my king...I am owned property and have been given some rules to live by.  Not all Christians might feel this way, but this man's apostles referred to themselves as his bond servants (this was a serious thing to say within countries that had a thriving slave culture) and I consider myself the same...owned. This was my own free choice, not something forced on my by my community or my parents, nor by my God.

Whew, that's enough of my own beliefs for a while.  Just wait, other Christians might show up here and pop me on the head and skin me alive, lol, especially for my views of Hell.  Humans can't help but offend each other from time to time.

I'm glad we all have the freedom to be different and offend each other occasionally.  Butting heads also helps shake us up and rethink our own beliefs, this can be a good thing.  Mom and I disagree on a lot of things even while reading the same chapters.

quote:

So I guess the question is, which is more important being good or the reason you are good

Through obedience, I find peace.  Christ focused on the spirit of the law and not just the letter of the law, so I try to do the same when it comes to my own behavior.  It's not my job to judge other people, but to be tolerant and kind and set limits when I have to.  I'm not worried about Heaven, because I'm owned and I have faith that my master will come for me when the time comes.  By submitting and being owned, not just going through the motions, I will have another home after this life is over.  I don't have to be a perfect servant who never makes mistakes, just ernest, sorry when I fail, and trying to be better so that I am more pleasing.  I don't have to earn Heaven, it is a gift given to me.  When I am judged, I will be considered innocent because my sins were paid for by my master.  When I have a tough decision to make, I don't make it with an "I'd better not do that or I'll go to Hell" attitude, but rather...I let myself be guided by that invisible teacher called the Holy Spirit.  If something would shame me and make me feel...less, then I try my best not to do it.

I have explained how I feel about my Christianity...and maybe you can see how different we can be from each other.  I know my feelings involve submission, maybe that's part of the reason I was drawn to D/s relationships because my soul already feels at home there.  I'm still having issues I'm trying to resolve, and have consequently set limits on myself.

About the Hell thing...I don't want to spend a long time looking it up in books and being uber accurate while I explain, so bear with me.  The original word for it was the name of an actual place outside of a city...where people tossed all their rubbish and sometimes sacrificed children to other gods...fires were always burning there at one place or another, night and day.  It was also either a dried up old river bed or lake, I can't remember which.  I see this as a comparison, a metaphor for what can happen to us after death, after we are resurrected to face judgment...if we are owned, we go to Heaven.  Those who don't go to Heaven...are discarded and given up on permanently.  No more second chances, but...discarded and forgotten, like the rubbish and dead people outside that city. 

If someone doesn't believe in life after death, then what would be the purpose to even wonder about eternal life?  Does it matter what others think?  God is the final judge, not man.

I told you my belief in Hell is radical...and I won't debate this with others.  I might listen to what they have to say for themselves but that is all.  I'm tired and wrapping this up now, but I'll say this... I left a church once, because of a final straw...they said that Mother Theresa wouldn't be going to Heaven because she wasn't a "twue ******" (insert their denomination, because I won't tell which one said this). 

quote:

...unless you believed the specific doctrine then you are off to roast.

That so many churches think that unless you're a member of their particular denomination you're doomed to be roasted...gets ridiculous when you've been to as many as I have.  The church is not our master...and...how can someone say they have a master if they won't learn their master's ways, much less follow his instructions?  Another thing I'll bring up...many Christians forget that the BUILDING is not the church, his people are his church. 

My disclaimer...and it's ridiculous that I feel the need to do so...
I'm not here to convert anyone.  This is merely how I feel about my own religious beliefs.  If anyone finds the fact...that I have beliefs that don't match their own...offensive...then  

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 4:33:31 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

One of the people I was talking to is homophobic and racist. This to me should be the opposite of what you come away from the bible from, and yet it is fairly gendered its hard to know which is the right thing.



Because like any book the bible is open to interpretation.

And like any person - they will interpret that book based on their own experiences/values/prejudice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Even more shocking to me was the belief that both of them had that unless you believed in god and where christian you would go to hell, that means regardless of how good you might be unless you believed the specific doctrine then you are off to roast.



Fear politics. It's like the 'strong defence' line. Christianity evolved from a small sect to the largest religion in the world precisely because it offered an alternative to the fear of death i.e. salvation.....and incidentally the fear and anxiety associated with life. A bit Nietzsche I suppose.....but I think it holds true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

So I guess the question is, which is more important being good or the reason you are good, of course it will throw up the question of 'what is good' but thats fine.



The most important component to life is to live it as you see fit.....'good' or otherwise.....and you're on the right lines with 'what is good?'.....and that line of reasoning can only lead to the conclusion that 'good' and 'evil' is a false dichotomy.

As an example....

One person may believe it is 'good' to have a strong defence as it preserves the security of the nation in which we all have an interest.

Another person may thing it is 'wrong' to have a strong defence as it encourages war....is fuelled by fear....and ultimately is a self-fulfilling prophecy i.e. plan for war and you'll get war.

Neither are inherently 'good' principles.....just different ways of doing things.

I personally would say it's more important to have some principles that you stand behind....though open to change as you're exposed to other ideas....than it is to conform to the general consensus of what it means to be 'good'.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 4:35:40 AM   
strippedwarrior


Posts: 21
Joined: 10/26/2009
Status: offline 		If you take the bible in as an absolute and literal guide, then yes there are contradictions. Also yes, you will be against homosexuals, and, maybe, a little racist. To say, following the absolute route, yes anyone who isn't christian will burn in hell forever more. What the Christian Church has promoted since medieval times is differant interpretations of the bible, and its those interpretations that apparantly make the differance. Personally i think its like trying to interpret a traffic light. If it says no, it means no, if it says yes, it means yes, amber is a bugger to work with but you get the idea.  I cant quote other religions because I dont have immense personal experiance with them, I was raised Roman Catholic, and now I'm a Pagan, go figure.

But in my opinion, do good by others and you'll end up in whatever heaven you deserve, wether its enlightenment here or after.

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 5:17:15 AM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		Oh thanks guys,

Rule, I think NG commented pretty well on my knowledge of his penis. I also struggle to use the term evil, I think what surprised me most was that one of these people has become a close friend of mine, I was aware of her faith but perhaps not the form it took, it was strange to me to know that she thinks I am going to hell, I asked her how she dealt with that knowledge whether she felt superior, she said no just that she felt sad for people. I don't think evil comes close.

The.darkness, thats interesting and maybe that does change things a little, indeed the girl mentioned something along those lines, that heaven is heaven because it is in the presence of God so without believing, embracing whatever then how can you be in his presence. I don't know about the alpha course, I know that they are both very active going to bible study groups twice a week along with church.

Myotherself, I tend to agree that it shouldn't matter, I don't base my opinions of someone solely on some social chaacteristic, of course it plays a part but not all ....(whatevers) are a certain way.

Cynthia, thank you very much, it was interesting to see how your faith impacts on other aspects of your life. I know little about different groups or their interpretations, I try very often to talk about it but it often feels that talking to them as an 'outsider' means that often the response is little more than cursory, I expect a lot of that is to do with the fear of preaching.

NG, I think you and I have similar thought process' when it comes to topics like these, of course I am aware of interpretations but how can someone live a life by something that is so fluid? I am totally with you on the topic of goodness, as you say different people see it differently, my belief tends to lie in the idea of making your own set of values but at the same time allowing other people to have their own, I guess your own morality has to be the driving force.

Stripped, I think where I struggle is knowing which part to take as literal and which to not, you say that reading it a person would be a little racist, I can't see why though seeing as the bible is not about 'white' people, also with the homophobia, why does one line become more important than the underlying message throughout?

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Nah I am not happy to see you either

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 5:25:13 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally
why does one line become more important than the underlying message throughout?

It is from the Jewish Old Testament. A lot of the New Testament is not Jewish but Christian - and the Jewish parts in the New Testament had better be removed post haste.

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 5:35:07 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally
why does one line become more important than the underlying message throughout?

It is from the Jewish Old Testament. A lot of the New Testament is not Jewish but Christian - and the Jewish parts in the New Testament had better be removed post haste.



The whole New Testament is Christian.

Jews accept the Old testament but not the New Testament.
Christians accept the Old and New testaments.
Muslims accept both, but follow the Quran preferentially.
Mormons accept both, but follow the Book of Mormon preferentially.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally
Even more shocking to me was the belief that both of them had that unless you believed in god and where christian you would go to hell, that means regardless of how good you might be unless you believed the specific doctrine then you are off to roast.

This shocked me because I really didn't know people believed that, I guess it was in the back of my head but not something I had thought about.



Ah, the classic divide between faith and works.  Jews believe that salvation is through works - what you do.  Many Christians believe that salvation is through faith- what you believe.  The idea is that your belief determines your actions.  Unfortunately, many of them figure that they have faith, so what the hell - and then they act in completely unChristian ways.



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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 5:41:16 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

NG, I think you and I have similar thought process' when it comes to topics like these, of course I am aware of interpretations but how can someone live a life by something that is so fluid? I am totally with you on the topic of goodness, as you say different people see it differently, my belief tends to lie in the idea of making your own set of values but at the same time allowing other people to have their own, I guess your own morality has to be the driving force.



Intrepretation may differ from person to person.....though the bible is not fluid to the individual.

My Mother is Church of England.....and the bible informs her code of conduct....and it's been fairly constant throughout her life....though I would say she struggles with some of the contradictions....she's liberal at heart and struggles with the more conservative elements of the bible.....such as reconciling the 'god is there for everyone' idea....and the subjects of abortion and homosexuality. On race....I would say that the christians I know are more tolerant than wider society.

But yeah....seems we find much to agree on Lilly.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 5:43:46 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

*chokes on coffee*

Thanks a heap



There must be a lawayer out there somewhere who could win you millions from this through a law suit.......


< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 5/15/2010 5:47:07 AM >

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 5:46:07 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		You often hear that religion is the cause of war.....

Yet the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Church of England in general were vocal in their opposition to the invasion of Iraq.....we could have done with a few more like them.....

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 6:05:06 AM   
eyesopened


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From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		I personally think the bible (old and new testaments) should be read with an understanding of the audience for which each story was written.  Context is as important as content.  Again, my opinion.

But really, there are people who have a deep need to feel superior.  One can see this demonstrated on these message boards in variety of ways.  Often, I perceive the kind of christianity you described as being a superiority of last resort.  The whole "I'm saved and everyone else goes to hell" kind of thing makes little sense because if they really believe in a Diety, then they are also arrogant enough to presume to know better than that Diety, what It should do with Its own creation.   It is interesting to note that the old testament doesn't address heaven or hell.  I would have thought that if the afterlife was that important, God would have addressed those ground rules right up front. 

It is my view that the sum of most spiritual beliefs can boil down to this; if you think, speak, and act in a positive fashion then life will be a positive experience.  If you think, speak, and act in a negative fashion then life will pretty much suck for you. 

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 6:40:33 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		they were not originally, until the chinese drove them to it, and other than the hindu kush, most indians are not either....including the non-muslims.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 5/15/2010 6:44:01 AM >

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 6:53:05 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
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From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		Rule....its somehow comforting to realise you are still an idiot.

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 6:53:19 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
they were not originally, until the chinese drove them to it, and other than the hindu kush, most indians are not either....including the non-muslims.

I cannot find much on the Hmong, other than polygamy?

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 6:58:40 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Rule....its somehow comforting to realize you are still an idiot.



Thank you, Arpig.

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 6:59:28 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		http://gohmong.com/sibtham/index.php?topic=48.0 

the rest you can explain and research for yourself.   

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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 7:10:23 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
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From: Quietville
Status: offline 		""Even today, Hmong Americans still hold bitter grudges against one another and would put down one another personally and professionally.  Their actions lack self control. As a result their behaviors become unethically and unprofessionally pervasive.   Their demeanors become so uncharacterized to the point where one cannot see oneself as a leader or professional anymore, and one is waging his or her entire career for trying to win the argument that is so worthless""
http://gohmong.com/sibtham/index.php?topic=48.0 

I admit to not reading the entire site, but there is not too much here that is not a learned behavior.


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RE: Good or Christian - 5/15/2010 7:37:38 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
http://gohmong.com/sibtham/index.php?topic=48.0 

the rest you can explain and research for yourself.   

Interesting. What I picked up from that was: "The majority of deceased are the wives". Though the text concerned the murder of a male competitor.

These people do not live in Grace. They have not been told and learned from Jesus solution as regards the adulterous woman.

From the point of view of reproductive success the murder of a male competitor is comprehensible. The murder of a wife is not. (Notice that they apparently do not murder their daughters.) I suspect, as there are indications in the text, that they murder their adulterous wifes in part for economic reasons.

Thus these murders are not motivated by the urge to stop the transmission of sexually transmissible diseases.

Once the Hmong convert to Christianity most of these murders will stop.

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