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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: sirsholly

Purgatory was recanted by the catholic church...

Sort of interesting isn't it? 

The Church is always changing its dogma, yet it teaches that the Pope is infallible.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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Additionally, I wonder, if a fetus does have a soul at conception or anytime before miscarriage and the fetus has not been baptised is that soul barred from Paradise? I wonder what the belief is.

My understanding is that the soul is innocent of any wrong doing and would not be barred.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html#XFpMfDKAva2g

Could explain it better than i can.

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ORIGINAL: CynthiaWVirginia

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Additionally, I wonder, if a fetus does have a soul at conception or anytime before miscarriage and the fetus has not been baptised is that soul barred from Paradise? I wonder what the belief is.

Btw, I can't wait to ask my mother her opinion on this, as I don't know already.  Anyway, some of my family roots were Catholic, and I believe I was told that the baby's soul would go to Hell if it hadn't been baptized.  I don't know if a priest being present in the hospital and giving last rites or whatever would make things okay...maybe with a closer to term baby, or with a still birth, but with a first or second trimester pregnancy, I don't know.  This always upset me, and no, I'm not Catholic.

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When I lived in California, I had Jewish friends and I was told that a child's sins don't count as their own until after they come of age, at something like 12 or 13. Before then, the parents are responsible to God for anything the kid did wrong...and I think afterward too (but I may be wrong) if the parents hadn't taught their child that something was sinful. Under this, any death of children under this age would be...innocents, and their souls would go to Heaven. (I wish someone Jewish would step up and let me know if I messed up in my thinking.)

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My mother has read the Bible from cover to cover several times, but under the guidance of some group that helps her decide how to interpret what she reads. We disagree on many things, but agree to disagree. Another thing we disagree on is this...she flatly states that accepting the covenant with Christ is not enough...one also HAS TO BE baptized and has to study the Bible. To me, both of those would fall under earning it instead of through grace. I stand behind my master, and do those things to be pleasing or to understand things better, and not to "earn" anything.
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edited to avoid double posting

Thank you, tazzygirl! I went to that site you posted and read that first page, but also looked up "Did Jesus Command Baptism in Order to be Saved?" Finally! Now I can tackle my mother about it and we can have a wonderful haggling discussion. I'd better bring cheescake and tea, because I think I'll come out on top this time, lol. From the site you posted:

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In stating that one must be born again, Jesus referred to 2 births - the first the physical birth on Earth. Nicodemus recognized this as the first requirement, since he stated that a man cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb (John 3:4). In the very next statement he explains the two kinds of birth. "Born of water" refers to the physical birth, whereas "born of the Spirit" refers to being "born again" or the second birth. In the next verse, Jesus clarifies the statement explaining that "born of water" refers to being "born of flesh." Jesus was clear and direct. There is no mention of baptism anywhere. "Born of water" never refers to baptism in any other verse in the entire Bible. The Greek word used is "hudwr" (Strong's number G5204).1 The Greek word for baptism is "baptisma" (Strong's number G908).2 If Jesus had wanted to refer to baptism, He would have used this word. In fact, the word (or a variation of it) occurs 112 times in the New Testament.

There are other things on my mind I look forward to reading about, but I'm too tired to do it justice tonight. Thank you thank you thank you.

Sorry for derailing the subject a bit.
<Continues her Snoopy dance.>

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

John 14:6

Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Seems pretty definitive. I don't know how anyone can claim to be a Christian and ignore this basic doctrine. Also, it seems very exclusionary.

I would welcome any comments from people who think otherwise.

What "exclusionary" about it?  In a negative sense?

Christianity is about free will at its core. 

No one is forced to believe, or accept that he is "the way, the truth, and the life.".

Firm

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ORIGINAL: eyesopened

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Additionally, I wonder, if a fetus does have a soul at conception or anytime before miscarriage and the fetus has not been baptised is that soul barred from Paradise? I wonder what the belief is.

What I was taught from the Catholic side on my family is that a fetus is human but does not have a soul until birth. I don't know if this is still the belief. The Catholic church barred un-baptised infants from the face of God until the Judgement but a special heaven-like place called Limbo was reserved for those infants.

Perhaps some Cathloics could set me straight on this but as I understand it, even sinners get a second chance in Purgatory and that hell is reserved only for those who out and out reject Christ. 

As I was raised... it isn't baptism that in required for salvation.  Salvation has already been accomplished, the Devil is a defeated foe and when Jesus said "It is finished" it was.  Nothing more needs to be done.   According to how I was raised, the only requirement is to simply believe this is true.  By Grace... through faith.

YMMV

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Butch,

Christianity isn't about being judged "on a book" at all.

Who gave you that idea?

According to Christian doctrine, every single man, woman and child has already been judged, and found wanting.

"The standard" of living a "good life" is impossible to meet, and that was recognized by God and Jesus.

That's what his crucifixion and resurrection was all about.

Firm

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ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally
So I guess the question is, which is more important being good or the reason you are good, of course it will throw up the question of 'what is good' but thats fine.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

We would need someone Jewish to clarify this as you say. My understanding is that "sin" in Judaism is being in violation of The Law as handed down by Moses and expanded I think in Leviticus or Deuteronomy. I am not sure which. Also, my understanding, the Covenant was with the nation of Israel. God's wrath was judgement against collective disobedience and the evidence for this collective sin was some catastrophe or other such as the Babylonian Captivity or the Syrian and then Roman domination.

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ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

We would need someone Jewish to clarify this as you say. My understanding is that "sin" in Judaism is being in violation of The Law as handed down by Moses and expanded I think in Leviticus or Deuteronomy. I am not sure which. Also, my understanding, the Covenant was with the nation of Israel. God's wrath was judgement against collective disobedience and the evidence for this collective sin was some catastrophe or other such as the Babylonian Captivity or the Syrian and then Roman domination.

Th Law of Moses is the Ten Commandments, aka the Mosaic Law.  It got expanded like heck.  "Sin" in Judaism is not as clear as it seems to be in Christianity - it is assumed that everyone will transgress, and that we should strive to avoid that.  It's not like someone is tracking your every move in a celestial spreadsheet and using it against you.

The Covenant is with the Jewish people.  The word "Israel" in Hebrew means "all Jews everywhere".  Note that there was no state of Israel until 1948.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Between Rosh Hashanah and Yum Kippur don't Jews seek to be absolved from transgressions? Isn't that similar to what Catholics do more frequently? And why should I be surprised since Christianity has its roots in Judaism? But Jews are not atoning in expectation of entering Heaven?

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ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Between Rosh Hashanah and Yum Kippur don't Jews seek to be absolved from transgressions? Isn't that similar to what Catholics do more frequently? And why should I be surprised since Christianity has its roots in Judaism? But Jews are not atoning in expectation of entering Heaven?

Sorry, vincent, I'm out of my depth here.  Maybe another Jew could help out...

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

John 14:6

Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Seems pretty definitive. I don't know how anyone can claim to be a Christian and ignore this basic doctrine. Also, it seems very exclusionary.

I would welcome any comments from people who think otherwise.

What "exclusionary" about it?  In a negative sense?

Christianity is about free will at its core. 

No one is forced to believe, or accept that he is "the way, the truth, and the life.".

Firm

So, are you saying that making the choice not to believe (Jews and Atheists for example) the non-believers are destined to what????

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Butch,

Christianity isn't about being judged "on a book" at all.

Who gave you that idea?

According to Christian doctrine, every single man, woman and child has already been judged, and found wanting.

"The standard" of living a "good life" is impossible to meet, and that was recognized by God and Jesus.

That's what his crucifixion and resurrection was all about.

Firm

Firm I agree with you completely...I was only addressing the OP and her experience with people that believed the Bible must be taken word for word as if God himself wrote it rather than men inspired by God. To many my thoughts on how to interpret the Bible will send me straight to hell….I’ll take my chances.

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

John 14:6

Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Seems pretty definitive. I don't know how anyone can claim to be a Christian and ignore this basic doctrine. Also, it seems very exclusionary.

I would welcome any comments from people who think otherwise.

What "exclusionary" about it?  In a negative sense?

Christianity is about free will at its core. 

No one is forced to believe, or accept that he is "the way, the truth, and the life.".

Firm

So, are you saying that making the choice not to believe (Jews and Atheists for example) the non-believers are destined to what????

According to Christian doctrine, anyone who chooses to believe otherwise will spend eternity without the presence of God.

Although, there are a number of Christians who believe that the unbounded love of God is large enough, and that we are small and unknowing enough about his "mysteries", that they will be given another opportunity.

If you want to know about people who haven't ever had the opportunity to know the word of God, or who are innocent (such as children below a certain age), then it's not clear.  If you are a Christian who believes in the unbounded love of God, then you have to have "faith" that He will be fair and righteous.

Firm

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ORIGINAL: sirsholly

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: sirsholly

Purgatory was recanted by the catholic church...

Sort of interesting isn't it? 

The Church is always changing its dogma, yet it teaches that the Pope is infallible.

if the catholic church teaches that the pope is infallible, then is not the catholic church putting him at a Godlike status, thus breaking the first commandment? How do they explain this?

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ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


Ah, the classic divide between faith and works.  Jews believe that salvation is through works - what you do.  Many Christians believe that salvation is through faith- what you believe.  The idea is that your belief determines your actions.  Unfortunately, many of them figure that they have faith, so what the hell - and then they act in completely unChristian ways.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Some have taken the pov that the crucifixion was pay-back to God for Adam's disobedience and so continued disobedience by those who refuse to accept Jesus as Savior will be punished. This first group, and they are legion I think, would protest that some acts by men are so grievious and abhorrent that there can be no forgiveness. Of course, the list of totally unforgivable and gross deeds seems to change from age to age and culture to culture, which is kinda interesting. But rejection of the Christ is right up there at the top of any list.

Others say the crucifixion was a message to humankind of God's love for all His creation regardless of their acts. Forgive the sinner, detest the sins; For God so loveth mankind he sent his only begotten son, etc...

If my non-belief is wrong, I hope the second group is correct.

The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' So they went.

He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.  He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

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ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Are you saying then that Jews are inherently "better" than Christians? I think there are a few folks in Palestine that would argue the point.