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RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:26:31 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		So you will keep posting it, up untill the time it goes into effect.




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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:26:58 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Lucky when do I get to pick up my new I.D? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:27:29 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Ellissabella, are you trying to use logic and reality with the trolls?


These folks have to pretend the law is different than what it actually is( and ignore a host of other laws and case precedents), in order to make their point. This goes all the way to the Obama Administration, which has admitted commenting on the law before reading it.

Of course they have to resort to insults, lies and ridiculous contortions.....


No one has insulted you, but as usual your lack of ability to make a cogent argument leaves you in the unenviable position of resorting to referring to those who disagree with you as "trolls".

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:27:51 PM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		[quote]ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

So you've been out minding your own business walking around and been randomly stopped by a police officer and asked for ID(I will leave alone the idea that your current ID is enough to "prove"you are legal which it isn't)without being upset that you were stopped out of the blue like that? If so, then you are a pretty docile in your approach then.

Yep, I have; and no, it didn't bother me.
quote:

So your logic is that it isn't going to be everyone that gets stopped all the time so that is ok?

My logic is that the police aren't going to be randomly stopping people for no other reason than they 'look' Hispanic. 
quote:

So what do you suspose is going to be reasonable suspicion? Think maybe being Hispanic in a nice neighborhood in Scottsdale is  going to be "suspicious"? Yeah I would guess that it would too.

That will be news to all the Hispanics that live in nice areas of Scottsdale.



Its fine if you have and didn't mind. I have been and I minded. A whole lot.

Your trust in police not stopping people based on preconcieved ideas is heartening. I just don't agree that they do that....in Arizona or any other locale.

Run yourself around Scottsdale. Not many brown faces in those homes unless they have a shovel and a rake.

(in reply to WyldHrt)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:27:57 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

So you will keep posting it, up untill the time it goes into effect.





When does that happen in the next year?...What date, dickhead?

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:29:58 PM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Please don't ask him questions. He really hates answering those.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:34:17 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

DMyngblk. Actually you are incorrect. Real ID is coming next year, and

Before a card can be issued, the applicant must provide the following documentation[16]:

A photo ID, or a non-photo ID that includes full legal name and birthdate.
Documentation of birth date.
Documentation of legal status and Social Security number
Documentation showing name and principal residence address.


This will be nothing more than showing a drivers liscence at a legal stop.


What a dope you are? How is this going to help? The motivated are going to get fake ID's while the poor who are working shit jobs may not be able to afford one.

We need to clamp down on the borders and enforce our existing laws. That will take care of the problem.


But people like you are afraid of their own shadow.



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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:36:28 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

What a dope you are? How is this going to help? The motivated are going to get fake ID's while the poor who are working shit jobs may not be able to afford one.


Most illegal immigrants are poor and working shit jobs.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:37:13 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Except it's not ambigous. It is written in English.

The clause, "WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES" is clearly subordinate, to '" FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE"


Lawfull Contact is defined by the USSC, in the cases you presented to me.


This law clearly is not a stop at random and give ID law.



No, it is not at all clear.

What this law seems to be saying is that a reasonable suspicion of being an illegal constitutes lawful contact.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:39:51 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		How would I know when you have to renew your drivers liscence?

Why would I care.

Illinois right? http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/drivers_license/newdlfaq.html

The information will be attached to your ID, in one of the 3 bar code spaces that are on it now. The one that has encrypted information for use by law enforcement. You had to proove your SSN to get the card, which is linked to your citizenship status.

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:41:07 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:


What this law seems to be saying is that a reasonable suspicion of being an illegal constitutes lawful contact.


"For any lawful contact" sets the condition required for the rest of the sentence to be applicable. FOR lawful contact (condition 1) WHERE reasonable suspicion exists (condition 2) IF practicable and won't obstruct an investigation (condition 3) THEN the person's immigration status will be determined (power/responsibility given to police when previous 3 conditions are met).

What you're saying would be worded "Where reasonable suspicion exists, lawful contact will be made." which is NOT what this law says.

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
21 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
22 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF
23 THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO
24 IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE
25 MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON,
26 EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY
27 PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED
28 BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:42:20 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Ellissabella, are you trying to use logic and reality with the trolls?


These folks have to pretend the law is different than what it actually is( and ignore a host of other laws and case precedents), in order to make their point. This goes all the way to the Obama Administration, which has admitted commenting on the law before reading it.

Of course they have to resort to insults, lies and ridiculous contortions.....


No one has insulted you, but as usual your lack of ability to make a cogent argument leaves you in the unenviable position of resorting to referring to those who disagree with you as "trolls".



Actually domyngblck and domiguy have both insulted me.


Kind of funny you get all upset at the word troll though.

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:43:58 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

How would I know when you have to renew your drivers liscence?

Why would I care.

Illinois right? http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/drivers_license/newdlfaq.html

The information will be attached to your ID, in one of the 3 bar code spaces that are on it now. The one that has encrypted information for use by law enforcement. You had to proove your SSN to get the card, which is linked to your citizenship status.


you are really a fucking idiot...Do you fuckers know how to read?

"Is this a "Real ID" Compliant Card?
The federal government has not yet issued any federal regulations for the Real ID Act. While this card contains features that we expect will be included in these future regulations, this card is not related to the Real ID Act."

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:44:32 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
Actually domyngblck and domiguy have both insulted me.


Kind of funny you get all upset at the word troll though.


I've insulted most of the people on this board.

DYB isn't a troll. I rarely agree with him, but he's a genuine enough guy.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:50:46 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:


What this law seems to be saying is that a reasonable suspicion of being an illegal constitutes lawful contact.


"For any lawful contact" sets the condition required for the rest of the sentence to be applicable. FOR lawful contact (condition 1) WHERE reasonable suspicion exists (condition 2) IF practicable and won't obstruct an investigation (condition 3) THEN the person's immigration status will be determined (power/responsibility given to police when previous 3 conditions are met).

What you're saying would be worded "Where reasonable suspicion exists, lawful contact will be made." which is NOT what this law says.

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
21 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
22 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF
23 THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO
24 IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE
25 MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON,
26 EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY
27 PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED
28 BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED.


Then again I have to ask, if you are correct in the interpretation of the wording why did this law need to be passed, why is there so much controversy about it, and why are Arizona legislators holding this up as a solution to the illegal immigration problem if this is just a repetition of federal law?

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 6:56:51 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Then again I have to ask, if you are correct in the interpretation of the wording why did this law need to be passed, why is there so much controversy about it, and why are Arizona legislators holding this up as a solution to the illegal immigration problem if this is just a repetition of federal law?



I don't know enough about federal immigration law to say whether there are any key differences, and I will say that the part I quoted is just a small portion of the law passed in AZ. The law also deals with employment of illegal immigrants and assisting them with staying illegally.

I'm also fairly sure it's the first law passed on a state level that requires legal immigrants to carry documentation at all times.

I'd imagine there's so much controversy because people have framed it in terms of racial profiling, and I'd imagine legislators are holding it up as a solution to win favor with the part of their constituency that elected them.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:02:41 PM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline 		Riddle me this one old luckydawg,

What exactly defines "reasonable suspicion"?  What is the definition of "reasonable suspicion" in the AR law?  You've never been stopped for anything like "driving while black" because the officer claimed some reasonable suspicion" have you?

I had a friend who worked with my ex.  He was a black male in his early 20's at the time.  He was working overnights at the TV station.  His overnight partner when they has finished all of their work would often tell him to just go home as she would cover everything for him.

He was messing around with this girl who was a little younger then he and living with one of her parents while she was attending school.  Rather than call (remember this was the early 90's everybody didn't have a cellphone) because he didn't want to disturb the house he would drive by.  If her light was on he would stop, if it wasn't he would continue home.  this would take place about 3 in the morning.

He had a rather nice Mustang and the way to her place from the station cut through a not so nice part of town.  Want to guess how many times he got stopped?  young black man, nice car, in the vicinity of an area where there might be drug traffic.  That equaled reasonable suspicion he was a drug dealer.  Nothing more,  but this of course meant the car just had to be searched.

Don't stand there on your soap box and try and pretend you have any idea what muddy writings of "reasonable suspicion" mean.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:02:43 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Keep that job at wal-mart.



You get to judge for yourself, elissabella, but that seems pretty trollish to me.

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:11:24 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Fl, you actually included 4 elements that were involved in making that decision (black, late at night, fancy car, in a drug dealing area).

Not just one.

and a white would almost certainly get pulled over, driving a nice car, in a drug dealing area, late at night.




"Reasonable suspicion" is decided and defined by the courts.




_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:15:07 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

How would I know when you have to renew your drivers liscence?

Why would I care.

Illinois right? http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/drivers_license/newdlfaq.html

The information will be attached to your ID, in one of the 3 bar code spaces that are on it now. The one that has encrypted information for use by law enforcement. You had to proove your SSN to get the card, which is linked to your citizenship status.


you are really a fucking idiot...Do you fuckers know how to read?

"Is this a "Real ID" Compliant Card?
The federal government has not yet issued any federal regulations for the Real ID Act. While this card contains features that we expect will be included in these future regulations, this card is not related to the Real ID Act."



In what way does that change the fact that you already had to proove your immigration/citizenship status to get the drivers liscence? You had to proove your SSN to get it in the first place.

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 100
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