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RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:16:20 PM   
esoclectica


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/9/2010
Status: offline 		This law was passed because federal law authorized federal law enforcement officers to act. There was an additional federal law which authorized federally trained and authorized local law enforcement officers whose organizations had petitioned for and been given authority to act were also allowed to check citizenship status under the federal law. The federal law did not authorize and definitely did not mandate under threat of civil action<lawsuit> the investigation of citizenship status by local law enforcement agencies. The Az law mirrors federal law in most respects, but authorizes and requires local AZ law enforcement officers to act when it would be legal to act and would not otherwise interfere with other police activites.

Put differently, Az passed the law so that local police could do what federal police do. And then added that failure to enforce the law was itself something that a police officer could be sued for.

There is no way to judge that someone 'looks' like an illegal imigrant. My aunt was a WW2 British war bride who was in the country illegally. Just as caucasian as can be. Asian sex trade workers, hispanic construction crews, Indian, Middle Eastern, and European students and licensed work visa overstayers<yeah i know it's not a word> are all illegal . Yet they look nothing alike. This law is going to require that ALL individuals subjected to a legal police stop have their documents checked. That is really the only way to enforce it fairly, and personally I have no problems with checking everyone's ID in the event of a legal stop.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:20:40 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		15 min from where I work, there are Mexican folks selling S.S. cards. While I could not buy one, any one of the latinos I work with could. It cost 100.00. With that I could, with a little work, get a drivers license.

If I know this, you can bet the cops know this.


How does yet another unenforcible law change anything

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 5/16/2010 7:21:17 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:22:28 PM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Fl, you actually included 4 elements that were involved in making that decision (black, late at night, fancy car, in a drug dealing area).

Not just one.

and a white would almost certainly get pulled over, driving a nice car, in a drug dealing area, late at night.




"Reasonable suspicion" is decided and defined by the courts.





That's the problem,  you actually believe that.

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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:24:54 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: esoclectica

. This law is going to require that ALL individuals subjected to a legal police stop have their documents checked. That is really the only way to enforce it fairly, and personally I have no problems with checking everyone's ID in the event of a legal stop.



I have a huge problem with it. I do not want to be stopped based on some cops attitude that day. I do not want to have to show my papers.

I an not willing to give up personal liberty for the illusion of security.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:24:59 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		JEFFFFF. Real ID Act. I know your buddy domi declared it should not be talked about.

But it's federal Law.



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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:26:08 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009
That's the problem,  you actually believe that.


I can attest that I've been pulled over, in nice cars and shitty cars, late at night and during the day, for being a white person in a predominantly black, drug dealing neighborhood.

Which begs the question - if 95% of white people in that situation are buying drugs, is racial profiling justified? And does it change the situation if it turns out the cops were right?

(in reply to flcouple2009)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:26:17 PM   
esoclectica


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/9/2010
Status: offline 		On the subject of driving while...

My white 60 yr old grandmother and one of my aunts were driving a renal car in LA and got lost in a bad area of town. A cop pulled them over. I guess that was driving while white? They had a nice rental car in a bad neighborhood at night. 3 good reasons for a stop to me.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:27:29 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff


quote:

ORIGINAL: esoclectica

. This law is going to require that ALL individuals subjected to a legal police stop have their documents checked. That is really the only way to enforce it fairly, and personally I have no problems with checking everyone's ID in the event of a legal stop.



I have a huge problem with it. I do not want to be stopped based on some cops attitude that day. I do not want to have to show my papers.

I an not willing to give up personal liberty for the illusion of security.


There's like 5 other pages of this thread where people go over the fact that the law doesn't let cops check random people on the street, they have to have a lawful reason to stop a person first, and THEN they can check immigration status.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:28:06 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff





I have a huge problem with it. I do not want to be stopped based on some cops attitude that day. I do not want to have to show my papers.

I an not willing to give up personal liberty for the illusion of security.



Moving out of Chicago would be a start then!

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:28:38 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Fl, you actually included 4 elements that were involved in making that decision (black, late at night, fancy car, in a drug dealing area).

Not just one.

and a white would almost certainly get pulled over, driving a nice car, in a drug dealing area, late at night.




"Reasonable suspicion" is decided and defined by the courts.





That's the problem,  you actually believe that.



believe what?

That there were (at least) 4 elements in the 3rd hand andecotal situation you described.

Or that a white driving in a a drug dealing area late at night in a nice car, would not get pulled over.

Or that the courts define the law?

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I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to flcouple2009)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:34:42 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Section 37.11(c) of the DHS final rule allows the states to accept several types of documents as proof of social security number: a social security card, a W-2 form, an SSA-1099 form, a non-SSA-1099 form, or a pay stub bearing the applicant's name and SSN. However, the states are not required to verify the validity of these documents directly with their issuers (e.g. with the employer that issued a W-2 form or a pay stub). Instead, the DHS rule requires the states to verify the validity, and its match with the name given, of the social security number itself, via electronically querying the Social Security On-Line Verification (SSOLV) database managed by the Social Security Administration.



This in itself defeats the purpose, no?

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(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:41:13 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		It defeats the purpose of the mexican selling fake SS cards on the street corner.


They will come back from federal checking as invalid.

as would anyone trying to use the SSnumber on his paystub.
Or W-2
OR 1099


All of which could be accepted, but have to be verifyied and cross checked with the feds.

So the answer to your question would be "no".

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I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:42:48 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Ok, got it


Hate it.

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(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:46:25 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Hate what?

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I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:51:00 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		The act itself.

After a brief skim. I will read it more thoroughly later, but I don't think it will change my mind.

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 5/16/2010 7:52:56 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 7:53:43 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Well we all know your full of hate......

But it is the law.


Why do you hate the fact it will be much harder to use fake documents in America?

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I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 8:00:13 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Interesting response.

I have treated you quite civilly lately, so of course you offer up a weak insult. Next you will call me a troll.


But to your point, I hate anything that reduces liberty and increases the power of law enforcement. I hate the patriot act and I hate this one. If safety is our concern, wouldn't the money be better spent on something like inspecting ALL of the cargo that comes into this country?

Why would a conservative champion the increase in government?

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"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 8:05:22 PM   
esoclectica


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/9/2010
Status: offline 		Actually, the problem is that verifying the SSN directly does not work in many cases. SSOLV tells the cop if the SSN number exists. It does not tell you the name of the person it is issued to. It also does not tell you the address of the SSN number's holder. As far as SSOLV is concerned, a thousand people with different names and addresses can all be associated with a given SSN. Because SSOLV only says if the number has been issued. This is why it is possible for illegal immigrants to receive valid W2 and driver's licenses. There is, in most states, no check to see if the SSN matches the ID of the SSN user.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 8:11:12 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

If that is true, then my original point stands.

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(in reply to esoclectica)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: AZ, All Stars, & Looking Illegal - 5/16/2010 8:17:21 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
In what way does that change the fact that you already had to proove your immigration/citizenship status to get the drivers liscence? You had to proove your SSN to get it in the first place.


Try and get your head out of your ass. are you really this dense? Do you work?

Fucko, you said this.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

DMyngblk. Actually you are incorrect. Real ID is coming next year, and




You show me some Illinois site that specifically says that .....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Secretary of the state of Illinois- Jesse White
this card is not related to the Real ID Act.


You are a very stupid person. That seems to have great difficulty in taking responsibility for your own idiotic words.

You are a joke.


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Profile   Post #: 120
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