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RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/18/2010 7:44:12 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian


quote:

ORIGINAL: DommeKeliDallas

Why "defend" it?
That is like trying to "defend" your religious or political views.

Live your life and quit making excuses for being who you are.


I'm not so sure I agree with this "why defend it" idea, when I take it to its logical conclusion on a social scale. I think it behooves all who hold their liberties in this vein dear to familiarize themselves with the rhetoric and ignorance of the moral majority. It wasn't too long ago that such a majority necessitated that adult related sites ban together under the cover of the FSC. Law is not static, and courts can be politicized. What determines the climate of both are social attitudes and conceptions, which one will find are malleable enough with discourse, activism and education. It's a good idea for all to speak well on behalf of "the lifestyle", and consistently challenge those forces that rally to alienate and criminalize it.


There's some truth here.

Although I don't necessarily think BDSM is as at risk as, say, homosexuality proper, or polygamy, or 'truly controversial' practices like beastiality or necrophilia, etc. etc.

BDSM seems to cut across socioeconomic and religious boundaries rather remarkably, which is why I think it remains unstated but subtly accepted.


(in reply to MarcEsadrian)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/18/2010 8:44:36 PM   
daydreamlily


Posts: 1
Joined: 5/16/2010
Status: offline 		I think BDSM is more than just a community of self-proclaimed kinky people who like to dress up in latex and tie each other up. That would be like a Star Wars convention. BDSM runs deeper than that.

Btw, I wasn't trying to reply to "little wonder", this is a general comment for this thread.


< Message edited by daydreamlily -- 5/18/2010 8:49:16 PM >

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/18/2010 11:43:36 PM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline 		This, we will not defend.  ;o)


Consider the source, figure the ignorance- and let it go, at that.

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(in reply to SocratesNot)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 7:25:03 AM   
whipmaker7


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/30/2010
Status: offline 		pro lifers bomb buildings, kill people and have tried their damndest to appoint judges that rule conservative. Just think about what the key supporters of the Bush administration would have done to our country if they had their way 100%.

People who believe we don't need to defend our freedoms here and there are at the first stage of having their rights taken away. The op's example is pretty mild compared to what I've heard elsewhere... just because it isn't perfectly written or researched doesn't mean we should ignore it. They don't call it ignorance of the masses for nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Trying to defend your moral standard on something to someone that doesn't share that standard is like trying to convince a pro-lifer abortion is ok, or trying to tell a totally straight heterosexual male to have sex with another man, you just are not going to get them to accept it, period.


(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 8:16:36 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

SocratesNot,

Their criticism isn't any harsher than the words BDSM practitioners levy upon one another. I have never seen anything that an outsider has stated that can hold court with the things I've read in places like these. Food for thought.

~porcelaine




I was thinking the same thing, and even wondering if the "insiders" were worse. People who don't share orientations tend to be hostile or aggravating to one another, and in BDSM you often see tensions between the opposites (femdoms v. maledoms), (femsubs v. femdoms), (maledoms v. malesubs), and even (malesubs v. femsubs.)

In general people are simple, they think their kink is "cool" and someone else's kink is "perverted." This simple difference in sexual orientation then underlays a whole creed of what is "wrong" with the pervert.

The beauty of bigotry is how bigots actually think they are being "objective," "honest," and even "helpful" to others.

Note: I'm with Domiguy, I don't expect, need or want any outside validations. I keep everything private. I am pretty much fully convinced that "other people" will never understand, even if they read all the texts suggested by Boijen.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/19/2010 8:22:46 AM >

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 8:34:59 AM   
whipmaker7


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I was thinking the same thing, and even wondering if the "insiders" were worse. People who don't share orientations tend to be hostile or aggravating to one another...


From what little I've seen of you cloudboy, your comments sometimes fit that description pretty well.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
The beauty of bigotry is how bigots actually think they are being "objective," "honest," and even "helpful" to others.


Pardon me, but are you calling us all bigots now? interesting. I think you may want to take a look in the mirror.



quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I don't expect, need or want any outside validations.


That's a misrepresentation and derail of the subject at hand currently in this thread, and you know it, i bet.

the point is, cloudboy, your life can suddenly be made public at a moment's notice, then you are held to public opinion about what it is that you do. its not that we need outside validation... we need outside education, at least, that's the way I feel about it. Its already happening in the media to some degree and with organizations mentioned earlier, but the effort isn't over.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 9:26:18 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		whipmaker,

I cannot speak for cloudboy's character, particularly since I've been away from this site for a short time. However, there is some validity in what he says. Not only in the things one sees in venues such as these, but outside of it as well. The misconception many make is assuming that a similarity in kink suggests that person is tolerant and appreciates diversity. I can candidly admit that's incorrect and the postulations can be pretty bad on occasion.

Although I won't say that BDSM practitioners are worse, I'm not oblivious to their ability to inflict harm. For the most part their actions are fueled by principled beliefs, misapplied concern, insecurity, and ego. I don't believe they'd go to the extremes some are willing to take in support of their cause. However, nutcases come in all shades and orientations. We're no different.

I don't seek for others to understand what I do. Nor do I deny their willingness to express their discomfort about it either.

~porcelaine

< Message edited by porcelaine -- 5/19/2010 9:27:10 AM >

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(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 9:58:21 AM   
whipmaker7


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

Although I won't say that BDSM practitioners are worse, I'm not oblivious to their ability to inflict harm.


I'm not either. but I'm guessing there's a lot of 'vanilla' that's just barely bdsm showing up on boards like these.

in fact a lot of people writing in places like these don't represent 'bondage, discipline and sadomasochism' too much at all when you think about it. Collarme and bondage.com and fetlife are used as sort of spicy personals ads for dates by many people, i think.

but that's not to say there aren't people who really do engage in bdsm and m&s here. Sure, we can be egotistical dicks. We can be opinionated, like anyone else! But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned about people misrepresenting sadomasochism and d&s and putting it in the same category as 'criminal acts'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I don't seek for others to understand what I do.


I'm a little confused about where you stand exactly. Do you think that forming groups and giving the public basic education about d&s is a good thing or bad thing? Do you think that defending our freedoms is a need or not?

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 10:54:09 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		whipmaker7,

quote:

in fact a lot of people writing in places like these don't represent 'bondage, discipline and sadomasochism' too much at all when you think about it.


The representation of their reality may not be my cup of tea, but I don't deny them their right to self expression. Authenticity doesn't make for suitability.

quote:

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned about people misrepresenting sadomasochism and d&s and putting it in the same category as 'criminal acts'.


I never said I'm unconcerned. But some of you are dangerous and our individual interpretation of what that implies differs. I fall back on CNC but what I deem consensual reads very differently on the legal end.

quote:

I'm a little confused about where you stand exactly. Do you think that forming groups and giving the public basic education about d&s is a good thing or bad thing? Do you think that defending our freedoms is a need or not?


Yes I believe them to be good and I've participated in quite a few over the years. I've also mentored as well. That doesn't change the fact that I'm not seeking understanding or acceptance within or outside of the fold. I believe those things are individually given according to the bearers preferences.

This isn't about advocacy at all. But it does address your personal stance on intrusiveness. For some the post will be a rallying cry and for others it is nothing more than Internet fodder. Both perspectives can be equally valid according to where that person leans.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to whipmaker7)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 1:10:10 PM   
whipmaker7


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Yes I believe them to be good and I've participated in quite a few over the years. I've also mentored as well. That doesn't change the fact that I'm not seeking understanding or acceptance within or outside of the fold.




I didn't ask if these groups are generally "good".
I asked you if you think organizing to generally educate the public for all our protection is a good or bad thing.


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Both perspectives can be equally valid according to where that person leans.



That's very politically correct to say in a forum like this, but I'm talking about perspectives public opinion and the law has on what we do.

What makes the attitude of 'I don't care what the public thinks about what we do' really defendable itself?

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 3:37:35 PM   
LordDarkPleasure


Posts: 91
Joined: 4/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Several months ago I came across a blog in which there was some very harsh criticism of BDSM. I tried to find this blog again, but it seems it has been deleted. However, when I visited it a few months ago, I managed to save just a small part of it which lists 10 reasons why BDSM is bad. So here is this list:

quote:

BDSM is bad because:

1. It reinforces and glorifies sexism either in form of male chauvinism or female chauvinism, which is sometimes romanticized as "female supremacy".
2. Its glorification of sexism makes fun of decades of women's struggle for equality of sexes and for their rights.
3. It is addictive.
4. It causes people to stop being turned on by normal or "vanilla" sexual activities, making them practically impotent.
5. People who pursue BDSM tend to get bored over time with milder practices, so they usually push their limits, often ending up in very dangerous territories.
6. Only in mild forms of BDSM there is equal treatment and respect between those involved. All "pure" forms of BDSM involve systematic exaltation of one side, and depriving the other side of all their rights and humanity.
7. Even if BDSM is consensual it makes fun of thousands of years of bloody fights for freedom which have been fought all over the globe.
8. Absolute forms of slavery are illogical. While minder states of slavery are necessary in order to achieve a certain state of mind, in absolute slavery unreasonable demands of the master or mistress exceed to a enormous degree all that is needed for a slave to achieve a certain state of mind. This is because those demands continue well after that state of mind is achieved. Actually, in 24/7 relationship they never stop.
9. Slaves actually stop being humans, because having a choice, making independent free decisions is an essential part of the definition of the human being.
10. It abandoned its own creed of Safe, Sane and Consensual, now embracing virtually anything, only if it is consensual. New creed is Risk Aware Consensual Kink which permits anything to which one consents fully aware of the consequences including blood, cannibalism (do you remember Armin Meiwes), feces, physical mutilation, etc.


I'd like to see if we can find valid counterarguments to defend BDSM from all of these accusations.


I have not read all the posts in this thread, but what I would like to say is that this person reminds me of those highly homophobic republicans... that turn out to be gay.  When I read that, I actually read a pretty good knowledge of BDSM practices for a vanilla.  He obviously spent a lot of time looking around with the intent of judging everythin in a bad way. 

But he still spent time doing the research.

He did raise a couple of valid points though, but those points are valid only with stupid people who go too far.  Then again you can judge any hobby, or opinion by citing what stupid people who go too far do.

(in reply to SocratesNot)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 6:10:49 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		whipmaker7,

quote:

I didn't ask if these groups are generally "good". I asked you if you think organizing to generally educate the public for all our protection is a good or bad thing.


Okay, it's clear you missed my point. Yes the groups are beneficial and yes I've participated in them.

quote:

That's very politically correct to say in a forum like this, but I'm talking about perspectives public opinion and the law has on what we do.


Politically correct? No. Meant to be taken as written? Most definitely.

quote:

What makes the attitude of 'I don't care what the public thinks about what we do' really defendable itself?


I highly doubt that those who are concerned (note the difference) are incessantly worried about what other people think. You can feel one and have no regard for the other.

And when I say public that includes y.o.u. It would mean anyone that falls outside of the confines of my partnership. Now we can take that in a million directions but I prefer to cut to the chase. I don't care what you do. I mean that in its most literal sense. We can be nice and say I accept your right to live your life as you see fit - which is true. Or we can spin it from the power exchange perspective which narrows my areas of focus. There's another part of this and it has to a lot to do with my makeup and my station. Sincere concern doesn't mean that I sit in judgment nor does it suggest that I'm wearing blinders either.

My original post in this thread brought that to light. As bad as one might view that man's writings we have the same element among our ranks. I can't accept one and ignore the other. He was clearly self righteous but a lot of "us" are the same. In the end you'll think as you please and that's okay. Where I draw the line is when your thoughts begin to infringe on my world in a negative way.

It isn't the act of thinking that I focus on but the results of those thoughts. I may think you're a sick person for what you do, but that doesn't give me the right to send the police to your door because I believe your lifestyle is wrong. That's what I'm willing to defend.

~porcelaine

< Message edited by porcelaine -- 5/19/2010 6:12:00 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to whipmaker7)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 7:33:31 PM   
LadyCimarron


Posts: 625
Joined: 12/29/2009
Status: offline 		I have one defense for each argument
under each sentence copy and paste the following statement

"Yes, but its fun, its legal and we love it."

No further defense is necessary.

(in reply to SocratesNot)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 9:36:05 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Was going to respond, but I could tell that it would not work in this case.

(in reply to whipmaker7)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/19/2010 9:40:08 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Okay, it's clear you missed my point.


You went where I decided not to go.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/19/2010 10:11:22 PM >

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/20/2010 2:32:54 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		The funny thing is, I'm in the why try to defend it camp.  Actually, it's not for the reasons that most folks have listed.  The difference is, the person who wrote that blog is never going to hear Me.  Even if they did, I don't especially think that being told otherwise would especially matter.  

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(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/20/2010 7:37:50 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: whipmaker7
in fact a lot of people writing in places like these don't represent 'bondage, discipline and sadomasochism' too much at all when you think about it.
Like me for instance.

quote:

Collarme and bondage.com and fetlife are used as sort of spicy personals ads for dates by many people, i think.
*chuckles* not like me.

quote:

but that's not to say there aren't people who really do engage in bdsm and m&s here.
Ooops, like me again... at least the M/s part.

OK, so I admit it whip. I'm confused. Am I officially allowed to be here or not? You probably ought to clarify your definitions then get them off to the site owners so they can implement them properly. Clearly they aren't doing the job of managing their own site properly.

_____________________________

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to whipmaker7)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/20/2010 7:38:04 AM   
whipmaker7


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: whipmaker7
I didn't ask if these groups are generally "good".
I asked you if you think organizing to generally educate the public for all our protection is a good or bad thing.


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

Yes the groups are beneficial and yes I've participated in them.


I may think you're a sick person for what you do, but that doesn't give me the right to send the police to your door because I believe your lifestyle is wrong. That's what I'm willing to defend.


Thank you for clearing that up Porcelaine. so it looks like you do find value in educating the public to some degree.

now i'll be the first person to admit I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, so don't get me wrong... I just find your writing sometimes appears to be a little ambiguous. Either that or its above my reading comprehension.

oh, and I dont think anyone here is talking about changing minds completely, but getting more tolerance in society, yes.

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/20/2010 7:42:53 AM   
whipmaker7


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

The funny thing is, I'm in the why try to defend it camp.  Actually, it's not for the reasons that most folks have listed.  The difference is, the person who wrote that blog is never going to hear Me.  Even if they did, I don't especially think that being told otherwise would especially matter.  




I agree, Lady Pact.

The person who wrote the blog is probably beyond help. It's the people who read such crap and are influenced by it without hearing another point of view that makes me say a little offense is the best defense on this subject


(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations - 5/20/2010 7:46:54 AM   
whipmaker7


Posts: 82
Joined: 4/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: whipmaker7
in fact a lot of people writing in places like these don't represent 'bondage, discipline and sadomasochism' too much at all when you think about it.
Like me for instance.

quote:

Collarme and bondage.com and fetlife are used as sort of spicy personals ads for dates by many people, i think.
*chuckles* not like me.

quote:

but that's not to say there aren't people who really do engage in bdsm and m&s here.
Ooops, like me again... at least the M/s part.

OK, so I admit it whip. I'm confused. Am I officially allowed to be here or not? You probably ought to clarify your definitions then get them off to the site owners so they can implement them properly. Clearly they aren't doing the job of managing their own site properly.



Leadership,

you say you're in an m&s relationship. Your avatar shows you engaged in bondage. Sorry but...what am I missing here?

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 60
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