How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (Full Version)

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SocratesNot -> How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 7:48:02 AM)

Several months ago I came across a blog in which there was some very harsh criticism of BDSM. I tried to find this blog again, but it seems it has been deleted. However, when I visited it a few months ago, I managed to save just a small part of it which lists 10 reasons why BDSM is bad. So here is this list:

quote:

BDSM is bad because:

1. It reinforces and glorifies sexism either in form of male chauvinism or female chauvinism, which is sometimes romanticized as "female supremacy".
2. Its glorification of sexism makes fun of decades of women's struggle for equality of sexes and for their rights.
3. It is addictive.
4. It causes people to stop being turned on by normal or "vanilla" sexual activities, making them practically impotent.
5. People who pursue BDSM tend to get bored over time with milder practices, so they usually push their limits, often ending up in very dangerous territories.
6. Only in mild forms of BDSM there is equal treatment and respect between those involved. All "pure" forms of BDSM involve systematic exaltation of one side, and depriving the other side of all their rights and humanity.
7. Even if BDSM is consensual it makes fun of thousands of years of bloody fights for freedom which have been fought all over the globe.
8. Absolute forms of slavery are illogical. While minder states of slavery are necessary in order to achieve a certain state of mind, in absolute slavery unreasonable demands of the master or mistress exceed to a enormous degree all that is needed for a slave to achieve a certain state of mind. This is because those demands continue well after that state of mind is achieved. Actually, in 24/7 relationship they never stop.
9. Slaves actually stop being humans, because having a choice, making independent free decisions is an essential part of the definition of the human being.
10. It abandoned its own creed of Safe, Sane and Consensual, now embracing virtually anything, only if it is consensual. New creed is Risk Aware Consensual Kink which permits anything to which one consents fully aware of the consequences including blood, cannibalism (do you remember Armin Meiwes), feces, physical mutilation, etc.


I'd like to see if we can find valid counterarguments to defend BDSM from all of these accusations.



leadership527 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 8:37:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
I'd like to see if we can find valid counterarguments to defend BDSM from all of these accusations.
Bluntly, you cannot. These aren't well informed, reasoned, critiques of BDSM practices. This is just random bile being spewed by some ill-informed, close minded person. NOTHING you say will change this. The person who wrote this is not interested in a dialog.

And side-rant here. Why do you BDSM'ers seem to feel that us vanilla folks are out to get you? I honestly don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but seriously... you're not that important. Vanilla people do not have little clubs where we gather in the back room of the church on Thursday night to discuss all the ways BDSM affronts us. Honestly, I spent 42 years of my life and at best I could say that in some vague, fuzzy, didn't-really-think-about-it way, I sort of knew BDSM existed... a bit. Every now and then vanilla folk come into contact with BDSM because it shows up on TV somewhere. Typically, we laugh (family guy), or maybe get a bit titillated (Mr. & Mrs. Smith) and then the next scene comes along and it's gone.

Sure, you get some of these "3rd wave feminists" who like to cry foul. But honestly, most of us vanilla folk think they're stupid too. And from my unscientific sampling, an awful lot of 2nd wave feminists think the 3rd wavers have gone off the track entirely. Then there's the handful of moral majority folk who think that sex is bad no matter what. But really, those groups are the crackpots of the vanilla culture. Paying much attention to them is pointless.



Missokyst -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 8:47:56 AM)

Very succinctly put. There is no real defense against a one sided argument. And the quoted text below was just too great not to be repeated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

And side-rant here. Why do you BDSM'ers seem to feel that us vanilla folks are out to get you? I honestly don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but seriously... you're not that important. Vanilla people do not have little clubs where we gather in the back room of the church on Thursday night to discuss all the ways BDSM affronts us. Honestly, I spent 42 years of my life and at best I could say that in some vague, fuzzy, didn't-really-think-about-it way, I sort of knew BDSM existed... a bit.




lucylucy -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 9:04:02 AM)

I say why bother arguing against this. Everyone doesn't have to like what we do.



lally2 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 9:17:05 AM)

why bother to be honest.  if thats their view point then theyre welcome to it.

i was watching a programme the other night about 'why men watch porn' - it was done on a response level to various activities shown as a porn clip.  one of those was sado-masochism.  one of the guys interviewed said and i quote 'i dont understand it myself, i suppose theyve got bored and need something more' - in some cases you could argue that is true.  plenty of couples find ways to rev up their sexlife, a bit of bondage or S&m will do that sometimes.

but you are never ever going to be able to explain to a vanilla why Ds or Ms (not specifically bdsm) is fundamental to our psyche, sexuality and happyness.  theyre minds dont tick along that line on any level and the whole emancipation of women, womens rights and equality is socially and media driven to the degree that anything else is abhorrent and wrong morally.  its almost visceral rejection of male domination and female submission to that dominance - its not that they dont understand the premis, they just dont want to understand the premis or be seen to have any sympathy toward it because that would be too much like flying in the face of socially acceptable behaviour or deviating from the 'norm'.

to deviate from the norm, i think, takes a visceral desire to answer whats already going inside you -

its a bit like keeping a horse.  plenty of people wont understand why when it costs the earth, youre out in all weathers and its hard work alot of the time.  but for those who love horses, who have horse in their veins and cannot live without them it is a passion that burns and can never really be explained to anyone who doesnt share that passion.

horses for courses



Jeffff -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 9:17:06 AM)

And most people won't like some of what we do.

That's why I don't wear a button that says " I want to beat you!".




leadership527 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 9:30:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
but you are never ever going to be able to explain to a vanilla why Ds or Ms (not specifically bdsm) is fundamental to our psyche, sexuality and happyness.  theyre minds dont tick along that line on any level and the whole emancipation of women, womens rights and equality is socially and media driven to the degree that anything else is abhorrent and wrong morally.
Again, I need to point out that my personal experience is that I don't have a difficult time at all explaining my M/s relationship to vanilla people. It's the BDSM'ers who are, by far the most judgmental. I have a suspicion about why that it, but it's only a guess. My feeling is that for vanilla folk, it's too far off their beaten path to care much. So instead, they look at the basics... we're happy together... all is well. But BDSM'ers tend to have given lots of thought to the topic and along with that comes privately cherished viewpoints and judgement on things which don't match the viewpoint.



rideemwet -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 9:47:54 AM)

"Even if BDSM is consensual it makes fun of thousands of years of...."
Yeah, and here on collarchat we even make fun of ourselves!



startoverslave -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 10:14:20 AM)

What came to mind for me is that is a list of 10 of the reasons I am in the lifestyle :P  Is that bad heehe  That being said I will say something to a person that slanders or speaks from a misinformed place in regards to the collective BDSM community.  As for vanilla's that ask me why I just say I am wired differently and dating in the vanilla world for me would be like a gay man trying to date a vanilla man (the equipment is there but he doesn't have the desire to be intamate in the ways the gay man needs).



SailingBum -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 10:14:57 AM)

Why do you have the need to "defend" what you enjoi? I really dont get it. Do you defend your hobbies as well? Are you really that insecure? It's like asking the question "When did you stop beating your girlfriend"? Do you see where I am going with this.

BadOne



lucylucy -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 10:19:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: startoverslave
What came to mind for me is that is a list of 10 of the reasons I am in the lifestyle :P 

This was my thought, too.

The "reasons" are so vanilla-centric. Like I really care that I won't ever be able to enjoy vanilla sex again. I don't plan to ever engage in it again, so who cares?



GraciousLady -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 10:19:34 AM)

Plainly the person who wrote that now deceased blog knew nothing about our lifestyle. They are prolly one of those types who are so overly enthused about social issues and what is politicaly correct they have lost all ability to use common sense and critical thought.

Wonder if the voluntary nature of our lifestyle was ever considered?



laurell3 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 12:40:03 PM)

We don't have to defend anything. We don't have to judge ourselves on other people's moral standards. The whole vanilla vs. us thing is ridiculous and only makes the problem worse as well. I cringe whenever anyone of these boards does that. Life and let live. There is no them vs us. There is no better or worse.

Honestly, a couple of the things on that list are true in my opinion. So what? Trying to defend your moral standard on something to someone that doesn't share that standard is like trying to convince a pro-lifer abortion is ok, or trying to tell a totally straight heterosexual male to have sex with another man, you just are not going to get them to accept it, period.



lovingpet -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 12:50:35 PM)

I do not defend or apologize for myself.  I am who and what I am.  If a person wishes to understand me better, then they will take the time to be better informed about matters pertaining to my world.  I no longer have to defend at that point.  If they do not, then I fail to see why I would care about their opinion of me or my practices.  I am me and proud of me.  I am not public and out about my bdsm, but that doesn't change the fact that it is part of what I do with absolutely no apologies or second thoughts.  I am the only one who will determine whether I need to "change my evil ways".  All others know where to get off if they don't like the ride.

lovingpet



Focus50 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 2:44:10 PM)

It reads like a sterile thesis.

IE, someone (of some intelligence) has researched a topic they have no drive or interest in practising. They just have no concept of the primal urges and passions bdsm explores which, when you think about it, is the very reason most of us find bdsm.

This one is my comedy favourite - classical cart before the horse deduction:
quote:

4. It causes people to stop being turned on by normal or "vanilla" sexual activities, making them practically impotent.

Hmmmm, intelligent (maybe) but not too worldly or practised - kinda like a college student writing a thesis on alternative human behaviour....

Focus.



HandSolo -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 2:44:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Why do you BDSM'ers seem to feel that us vanilla folks are out to get you?


http://www.nerve.com/dispatches/chihara/paddleboro



DesFIP -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 3:02:12 PM)

You need only prove one case of it being incorrect to prove it not to be true. That's how scientific proof goes. If it isn't true every time, then it isn't a law of nature. You can't say that gravity is in place everyday but Thursdays. If on Thursdays we could float around then that would be a disproof.

1 is untrue because I don't think all men are superior. I only think his decision making skills are.
2 is untrue because not having the choice to not have to carry the burden of decision at home is just as bad as never getting to, if you want that.
3 is untrue because we do it rarely due to time constraints and children around who stay up later than we do. I drink alcohol about once every six months. Am I therefore an addict because I always do have another eventual drink?
4 See 3. Most sex for us is vanilla. Now being in our late 50s physical inability does happen but that's due to chronic disease, menopause etc.
5 Maybe this is true, after 8 years of just rope we branched out and now own a set of leather cuffs. Who knows what we'll do in another 8.
6 Since there is no definition of pure, or true, this can't really be addressed. But I do admire the way she says anyone who still respects their submissive partner is therefore impure and untrue. Good use of sophistry there.
7 No because by definition consensual means it hasn't any relation to people being murdered or sold down the river. Apples and oranges.
8 I doubt it since most masters and mistresses don't have the time and energy to keep thinking up weirder and weirder things to do. They're too busy living, like everyone else.
9 Since there are plenty of examples of people with internal enslavement pulling back and requesting release, this goes back to being patently untrue since if it were true there would be no such examples
10 Strangest damned definition of RISK I've ever seen. It usually is used to say that if you agree to something like caning then you have to expect to have marks otherwise don't. And there are plenty of serial killers and cult followers who do this in vanilla relationships, assuming you call cults and such vanilla.

However I wouldn't call this common charges. Just one person's vent after his/her ex tossed him/her for someone more submissive. Sour grapes, imo.



kiwisub12 -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 4:13:40 PM)

Exactly who am i defending bdsm against? If you know i am into bdsm, it's because you are too.
If you are vanilla, then why would you pick me to debate with?



Caius -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 4:15:42 PM)

I believe you've confused second- and third-wave feminism here.  Third-wave refers to the ideological framework that is by far more likely to be tolerant of women seeking a power dynamic.  Third-wave represents a step back from what many feminists came to feel were the somewhat too-extreme views that typified second-wave thought (second-wave being closely associated with the concepts of gender feminism, the idea that any differences between the sexes were entirely culturally-derived and needed to be socially deconstructed).  Third wave seeks a bit of a return of focus to the equity feminism (the demand for equal rights in practical areas of life) that typified first-wave feminism but more importantly an embrace of eclectic concepts of womanhood and through this attempt at fusion becomes the most likely of all the eras/schools of feminist thought to contain adherents who would accept a submissive woman's drives.

On the other hand, that little bit of significant nomenclature not withstanding, fully 90% of the theory behind the latter two schools is the utterly vacuous, obfuscating jargon of sociologists trying to hide (often most strongly from themselves) the complete lack of substantive, meaningful argument in their work through the application of some of the most tedious, overly-wrought language you will find anywhere in academia.  Yes, the only discipline where you'll get to hear about things along the lines of the three chief dichotomies of post-humanistic paradigms of gender neutrality as approached from from the marxist-radical feminist social constructivist perspective...

But the three categories above do have substantial significance even to the causal feminist.  As you said (although with reverse-labeling) the lunatic fringe tends to pool in second-wave whereas third-wave tends to make much more reasonable claims and demands.  I think you'd have a hard time finding a self-proclaimed second-waver down with a woman calling her partner "master". No, no, no she would definitely be found in need of some "enlightenment". Unless of course that partner was another woman.  Some of them might go for that, but who can say with that lot; as a group, they aren't exactly a model of self-consistency.



littlewonder -> RE: How to defend BDSM from the most common accusations (5/17/2010 4:20:38 PM)

I don't try to defend it. I don't see anything to defend. I don't go around telling people about my interest in bdsm. I don't go around telling people about how I live my life..with or without bdsm. I don't see any kind of reason to defend it. Seems like a huge big waste of time.



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