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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/19/2010 5:08:20 AM   
CaringandReal


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Stubborness is a neutral trait: like any form of energy, it's how it's used that determines its outcome. A "stubborn" submission may stay with you through a long horrific illness or other terrible stroke of fate when another "Yes Sir to Everything" type would have been too flighty/superficial or too "delicate" to deal with such difficulty. A stubborn submissive may be too stubborn to let another dom get his hooks into her and draw her away from you, while a weaker personality might cave, particularly if the other dominant was charming or knew where her pressure points were. And, of course, a stubborn submissive might stubbornly insist upon arguing with you, about little or large things.

Iif you do not like her stubborn streak, I think it's a good idea you not entirely crush it and it can be of significant value to you, when directed properly. Instead, slowly and gradually set boundaries around it, so it doesn't affect your relationship as much. Perhaps set some rules, such as: if she disagrees with you, you two will discuss it but if in the end you decide your will should prevail, she will stop resisting, verbally, physcially, and passive-agressively, and just do your will without excuses or resentment. This is, of course, easier said than done. A stubborn submissive, as part of her stubborness, is liable to throw a lot of complications, red herrings, and other distractions in your path when you try to make her less stubborn with you. Whether such behavior deters you or not depends a lot on your personality and needs. As lovingpet pointed out above, some dominants are not bothered by this trait at all. Others, also represented in this thread, say they won't tolerate it in the least, although I do have to wonder how that actually works out for them in real life. Sometimes perfectionism prevents one from having much of a real life, if you get my drift. :/

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/19/2010 7:06:53 AM   
lucylucy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domrader
I have been reading around on the internet on this topic and I have seen a bit more of it around.  I believe I have one of these so called "stubborn submissives".  Anyone care to share their experiences on it?  Maybe even a little advice as to how one deals with it?  

I would suggest that you begin by recognizing your sub as a person rather than an "it."

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/19/2010 7:15:15 AM   
sweetsub1957


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: domrader

I have been reading around on the internet on this topic and I have seen a bit more of it around.  I believe I have one of these so called "stubborn submissives".  Anyone care to share their experiences on it?  Maybe even a little advice as to how one deals with it?  


Either she doesn't want to obey you, or doesn't know how.

If it's the former, tell her to change, or tell her "bye bye".

If it's the latter, then lead her, and teach her.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
quote:

ORIGINAL: reynardfox

Stop reading and get out there and get some experience.
You won't get that from a keyboard.


Seriously? If he wants to learn things he doesn't know, he has to ask questions. CM is a great place to do that and there are experienced people here who can help him get a head start.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

quote:

ORIGINAL: domrader
I have been reading around on the internet on this topic and I have seen a bit more of it around. I believe I have one of these so called "stubborn submissives". Anyone care to share their experiences on it? Maybe even a little advice as to how one deals with it?

I would suggest that you begin by recognizing your sub as a person rather than an "it."

What they all said.

~sweetsub~

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In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/19/2010 7:22:30 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: domrader

I have been reading around on the internet on this topic and I have seen a bit more of it around.  I believe I have one of these so called "stubborn submissives".  Anyone care to share their experiences on it?  Maybe even a little advice as to how one deals with it?  


Either she doesn't want to obey you, or doesn't know how.

If it's the former, tell her to change, or tell her "bye bye".

If it's the latter, then lead her, and teach her.


Top Quality response.


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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/19/2010 7:35:37 AM   
DesFIP


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About the it, I thought that pronoun was being attached towards the trait, stubbornness, and not the person. As such I don't view it as an inappropriate use of language.

As far as what example of her stubbornness he wishes to change, we don't have enough information. Because this could well be a case of the dominant unable to teach. He is, after all, all of 21. Not an age where most people have come into full flower in their knowledge of what constitutes compatibility or how to lead someone else safely.


< Message edited by DesFIP -- 5/19/2010 7:38:02 AM >


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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/19/2010 7:47:46 AM   
lucylucy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
About the it, I thought that pronoun was being attached towards the trait, stubbornness, and not the person. As such I don't view it as an inappropriate use of language.

Possibly, but bad grammar is often a result of bad thinking. Also, the reference to "one of these so called 'stubborn submissives'" is consistent with seeing her more as an "it" than a "she."

_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/19/2010 7:54:39 AM   
subangi


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Caringandreal.....how beautifully written and so insightful. 

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/19/2010 10:09:23 AM   
dove967


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Domradar,
One of the qualities I look for in a sincere Dominant is the ability to admit He doesn't know everything the minute He discovers He's a Dom.  You're asking questions and seeking knowledge.  I applude You for that!  But, I think more information is needed before the good folks on this board can adequately advise You. 

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/20/2010 5:27:57 PM   
domrader


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Wow I waited too long to check this, but thank you everyone for all the input.  And yes, I realize I need to have a little patience.  Improvement is showing but I cannot expect it over night.  I posted that in a moment of overwhelming frustration, not realizing that I would be putting our practices up for so much....scrutinization. But yes, next time I seek advice, I will try to be more forthcoming with information.  I am the first true dominant she was tried to learn from and basically had no knowledge of the subject before we met.  I am still wondering if I would truly call her submissive but I believe I see flashes of it from time to time, which in all actuality makes me more frustrated because I know its there, just not consistent.  And she may only be sexually submissive and not submissive to the degree which I prefer, so yes compatibility does come up in my mind.  I cannot truly tell if she is submissive because this is honestly my first time with a submissive who had less experience than I.  Most of the times I talk with subs they already know their submissive side in a basic sense, she is still discovering hers.  And if not submissive, I can tell she is at least a girl in need of some sort of guidance. She will admit that even herself.  And as one not so subtle poster said it, she may not like me that much, especially because I have to enforce rules like staying home and doing homework instead of partying.  So yes that is another aspect, she is immature too.  And another poster said something about she may just want to play, that could very well be it.  Part of the problem is she is not all the self aware, which is a big matter if one is trying to understand oneself.  So here I must be a guide and help her learn herself.  The main issue may be miscommunication. Which I think we could both be at fault for. But yes, I do question if the spirit of submission is there or not.  Part of it is I am asking her to make what she sees as big lifestyle changes (the whole party less, find deeper interests thing), and she doesnt know me all that well.  Submission may increase as her interest in me increases.

Lally, thank you for your great post. 
DesFip: The decisions I make are ones like, get a good nights sleep, quit drinking so much, do homework.  Its not a matter of smart decisions to her, its a matter of what she wants to do unfortunately.
Thank you LadyAngelika, I have the same sentiment towards that poster.
Thank you for the great post CaringandReal

I did not refer to her as an it, I referred to the problem or issue as it.  But yes, the previous statement was not quite the tone I had intended to give out.

I am actually 22, I'm not sure why my profile isn't showing it right.  And I would tend to agree with you in most cases DesFip.  Most men my age are not ready for that. I dont know if I would call some of my friends my age even men.  They dont know themselves well enough or other people for that matter.  I feel am much more mature than most people my age however, which makes it tough for me to relate to most people my age.  I tend to get obsessed with problems and attack them single mindedly.  My biggest problem from the time I was 18 was me.  Depression, self destructive habits, self esteem and confidence issues, all of that afflicted me.  My performance in school and other areas of my life fell apart around that time.  The point of that story is I tackled that problem really hard and I would look back on myself each year and think to myself "I cant believe I was like that" in a way that was almost disgust.  This year was the first year I could look back at the previous year and not feel unhappy with who I was at that time and realize that I may have been finally reaching a period of more static development.  I know that all sounds really logical and clinical and like I am a basket case of perfection, but I am not, that was just the short and sweet version.  The main key (IMO) with being able to guide other people and make good decisions is self awareness and how well you know yourself, once you know yourself you can finally start learning what makes other people tick.  When you can act as a moderator between your own two parents for conflict resolution, you realize that you may have hit a milestone.



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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/20/2010 5:38:13 PM   
kiwisub12


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I consider myself very stubborn, but when it comes to my Sir - l want to please him more than be stubborn.

But reading your last post, i would say you are right in the immature assesment. It would seem that you have a hard row to hoe with your sub. Good luck to you.

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/20/2010 6:03:12 PM   
littlewonder


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Sounds to me from your description, especially if she's younger than you, that she's still a kid and needs a daddy figure in her life.

I don't see it as stubborness. Basically she's not ready to grow up and hasn't matured.

I'd say you have your hands full. But I guess if you're the White Knight/Rescuer/Daddy type then you found the right girl for you.

Good luck.



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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/20/2010 6:09:15 PM   
DommeKeliDallas


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Are you kidding me?
He would be a pile of black and blue welts, or GONE..
Who is in CHARGE here?

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/20/2010 6:14:59 PM   
domrader


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Unfortunately or fortunately I am the White Knight/Rescuer/Protector type.  While I do enjoy that periodically, I dont desire a relationship based on this.  

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/20/2010 6:20:34 PM   
porcelaine


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CaringandReal,

quote:

Stubborness is a neutral trait: like any form of energy, it's how it's used that determines its outcome.


Excellent point. I concur.

quote:

If you do not like her stubborn streak, I think it's a good idea you not entirely crush it and it can be of significant value to you, when directed properly.


The voice of reason. Mature with a lateral approach to a problem. I like. :)

quote:

Others, also represented in this thread, say they won't tolerate it in the least, although I do have to wonder how that actually works out for them in real life. Sometimes perfectionism prevents one from having much of a real life, if you get my drift.


Some throw the baby out with the bath water. Perfection doesn't exist and if the girl doesn't have "this" issue she's sure to have another one. We're always choosing the flaw we can live with.

~porcelaine


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His will; my fate.

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/21/2010 1:44:37 AM   
reckless64


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quote:

as a sick little
quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleBroken

I use to be stubborn just for the sake of being stubborn.
Master use to get a vast sadistic kick out of breaking me down.
It was a sick little game we played with each other.
Who would give in first.
It was a game we both relished.

Maybe your girl is provoking you to use a firmer hand?
Maybe it's an attention seeking device?
Maybe it's time to up the force?
Pay her more attention and use a firmer hand....

If all else fails you can use the tried and trusted method of just asking her what the hell is up?




Sounds like a fun game for a while or ever now and again.  Sounds like a game I would enjoy to play on both ends.  I say you try to break her and have fun with it. 

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/21/2010 4:39:35 PM   
DesFIP


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Just because you believe you see flashes of submission doesn't mean that they're really there. Or that she's submissive outside the bedroom. Or that she feels submissive to you.

The last ones the kicker. There are lots of unattached dominants here and lots of unattached submissives. But you can't just pair them off. There has to be the right chemistry between them. Because if she doesn't want to submit to you, it isn't going to happen. It's like teaching a pig to whistle, annoys the pig and wastes your time.

Instead of giving her orders, talk to her. Explain how you prefer to be the person to set rules in a relationship. Ask her if she's interested in this. And if she isn't, stop annoying her and wasting your time. Communication comes first, last and all the way in between.


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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/21/2010 5:08:38 PM   
Frankseas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Oh Levelicious, there you go being all smart and stuff!


Even a blind squirrell will find a nut once in a while! (just saying...) *g*

Blushes? would that squirrel be in a guys pants? Lot of great answers from the long time seers of CM so wont ad any advice here as the best has been given. But hope the OP finds his answer!

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/22/2010 3:42:08 AM   
subsfaith


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I have refrained from responding to this for lack of information, now I have more, here are my thoughts on how I would handle the situation:

As you have pointed out there may be communication problems on both sides.  Take responsibility for that and work to improve your side of it.  You are dominant, and as a submissive, she should be automatically following your lead.  So I would talk to her, find out what submission means to her.  Talk it out, make sure you completely understand why, give her your perspective.  Explain that as a submissive her actions have consequences, and be clear how those consequences will affect her in the future.

Positive reinforcement is the way I would go, rewarding her for good behaviour.  It is basic psychology, read up on it and try it. This certianly appears quite relevant because it is a method commonly used when manipulating children's behaviour and you have highlighted her immaturity.  I wouldn't suggest patronising her and treating her like a child, but the same methods can be used.

And while not everyone advocates punishment, I think if used correctly it can be very beneficial.  By punishment I don't mean something she enjoys taken to the next level, I mean a real punishment. For example; if she hates being ignored, then ignore her... completely.  It could be that five minutes of complete silence, refusal to look at her, refusal to engage is enough for her to understand that her behaviour is wrong.  It links back to the idea that her behaviour has consequences.  But when punishing her, please remember you are taking the higher road, and the moment you are satisfied she has learned the lesson the punishment is over.  If you present the idea that you have no respect for fairness, she is unlikely, in the long term, to respect you either.

I note also from your post that you mention her inconsistency.  It makes me wonder if you are do all you can be ensure your consistency?  If you are showing her varying levels of dominance, that will in return affect her levels of submission.

Finally, in reference to you asking her to make big changes.  Perhaps you are trying to run before you can walk.  Be careful to control the speed at which you challenge her.  You are trying to build something here, that takes time.  If you are pushing too hard too soon, her stubbornness is a reaction to your mistakes.

Good luck, and enjoy your journey.

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/22/2010 5:07:28 PM   
Gungho1a


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Does the OP mean 'stubborn' or simply 'non-submissive'?

There comes a point where the difference may not matter - no point in continuing to flog a dead horse (so to speak).

If the issue is a basic incompatibility, either fix it or move on.  Incompatible relationships in the genre simply don't work in the long term.

Been there, done that, paid for it emotionally.

Edit:  Spelling.

< Message edited by Gungho1a -- 5/22/2010 5:08:18 PM >

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RE: The stubborn submissive - 5/22/2010 5:16:54 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

There are lots of unattached dominants here and lots of unattached submissives. But you can't just pair them off. There has to be the right chemistry between them. Because if she doesn't want to submit to you, it isn't going to happen.


Well stated Des. :)

I know one thing. If I want the guy I want to obey. But not only that, when I don't obey I feel bad. Compatibility aside, if you don't compel that part of her the rest is really moot.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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