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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 8:58:39 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I beg you all to please know and understand the subject upon which you speak before attempting to speak on the matter.


everyone doesn't perceive or experience submission the same way.

quote:

If we decide that we are no longer comfortable with a specific Dom/me because they have done something to lose our trust do we not leave them and take back our control?


maybe you do...but some don't.
this slave has spent quite a large chunk of her time continuing to surrender/submit to and serve folks whom she had lost trust in, in the past.
just because THEY broke their word time after time and disrespected our relationship with their words and actions and became untrustworthy didn't translate into "leaving them and taking back control".
it translated into forgiving them, getting help/counseling and continuing on with whatever the relationship was this slave had promised/agreed to submit to.
if that makes this slave appear unintelligent and obtuse, then so be it, but that's been a part of her experience with submission.

(in reply to slaveatia)
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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 10:02:11 AM   
jbcurious


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No, I don't attend school and I work for myself... Gee does that make me Dominant? No more then opening a door makes one submissive.

If we were to take what you say with any meaning, then we're all a bunch of mindless submissives doing nothing more then what society has programed us to do.

It would mean that when a Dominant disciplined a submissive he would actually be submitting to her need to be disciplined rather then being Dominant.

What you say makes absolutly no sense what so ever and your manner in putting forth your views leaves a great deal to be desired.

Regarding who has power in a relationship, you might want to read the recent thread concerning that subject.

The power to leave is held by both parties and isn't an act I would consider as being powerful. The end of a relationship isn't about power, it's about failure, and being the one to walk away is being the one to finalize that failure.

_____________________________

'Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.'


I have an explosive personality...


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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 10:37:40 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious
The power to leave is held by both parties and isn't an act I would consider as being powerful. The end of a relationship isn't about power, it's about failure
WOW. That I think is the most succinctly powerful way to describe this I've ever heard. If I had more room in my sig-line, it would go there.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to jbcurious)
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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 11:58:48 AM   
slaveatia


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So then by that statement you are saying submissives are mindless? You have so much too learn. However, with your closed minded views on life you will probably never learn the valuable lessons that can be taught to you. It astounds me that someone open minded enough too accept dominance and submission and the dynamic that lies within the two would be so closed minded as to not be able to see that everyday activities also involve the very thing a person claims to be.

I find it sad that you are not comfortable enough with yourself that you must troll a website and attempt to assert your skewed beliefs. Yes every society programs every person into believing that they should be certain things or they should think certain ways. It is human nature. You can accept that another person can have control over you or you over them yet you cannot accept the fact that every single day you do something that serves another person.

You say you work for yourself. That is a truly great thing, however; if you did not follow specific rules and guidelines would you still have a clientele? No, because you have agreed to do a SERVICE whatever that service may be. If you violate that agreement then the customer will no longer come to you.

I notice though that no one even tried to argue the point I presented about buying a new outfit for a child even though said child did not need it. I find it amusing that so many pick and chose the points to argue and that they cannot hold a debate about the points that are proven beyond any doubt. Kudos, though, on trying your best to prove me wrong. It did not work. As per the other post... to stay in an abusive relationship... well, counseling does help to a point. Once again though, once a person begins abusing another person it is easier for them to do it again. If your Dom had cut off one of your limbs would you have left him or would you have stayed and said "Let's get counseling?"

This is not about power nor is it about control. Aldom asked about human nature in its purest form. None of you have actually taken the time to realize that.

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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 12:19:27 PM   
jbcurious


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I really fail to understand how anyone can misunderstand the words of another as completly as you have mine. The fact that I don't agree with your opinion is not the same as trying to prove you wrong...you see some of us are open minded enough to allow others to have opinions that we don't agree with. It doesn't make anyone wrong, just different.

My only problem with your initial post and subsequent posts is your attitude of absolute and your need to have others accept your opinion as fact.

_____________________________

'Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.'


I have an explosive personality...


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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 12:20:21 PM   
Jeffff


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You're both wrong!



I hope this helps

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(in reply to jbcurious)
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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 12:32:58 PM   
jbcurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

You're both wrong!



I hope this helps





< Message edited by jbcurious -- 5/20/2010 12:56:12 PM >


_____________________________

'Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.'


I have an explosive personality...


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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 12:35:18 PM   
lally2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

Lally, those are things that I would do for anyone in my home.... hell, if they're staying the night I layout fresh towels and put a pitcher of water and a glass on the nightstand.

I see that more of being a good hostess or being nurturing rather than submissive.


i suppose the thing is i dont see him as a guest - for a guest i would do all of those things of course it would be odd not to, but he is more than capable of making his own tea -

im too gummed up with a disgusting cold to make sense - the energy is different behind the things i do for him and the things id do for a guest, its subtle and i know i am and it does bug me, the head space behind my actions and responses are different with him and its an odd mix of wanting to and wishing i didnt.

when he arrived the other night i shot out of the house, went for a ride (ignoring my disgusting cold) got back late and went to bed, determined to keep to my promise of not responding to him being there.  this morning, there he was and i could feel myself doing it.

i know you know what im trying to say here - ugh - going to bed xxx

< Message edited by lally2 -- 5/20/2010 12:38:16 PM >


_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 12:52:48 PM   
jbcurious


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Yes, I get what you mean... Hope you feel better soon, sleep well. Xx

_____________________________

'Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.'


I have an explosive personality...


(in reply to lally2)
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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 1:20:24 PM   
sravaka


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So, Slaveatia...  even if one ignores your obnoxious tone and concedes that submission and surrender are present all over the place in "normal life"....   how does this relate to consensual authority dynamics *in BDSM* (i.e., as asked in the OP, which you might consider re-reading.)   We're all here hanging on your wise words...

Incidentally, I hope that you are ultimately the controller rather than the surrenderer with respect to your child, even when you are indulging his/her desires? 

My view is that the dominant's consent is required for anything to fit under the umbrella of "BDSM relationship" (and I think it's extendable to other kinds of relationships), in other words, for there to be something genuine and mutual, though, yes, that consent may remain implicit.     

I liked how Jeff put it. (hi Jeff!) He could have decided, "ick! I don't want anyone submitting to me," and told Carol to stop prioritizing his needs or doing things for him.  The fact that he didn't implied consent.

It's the converse of a submissive accepting and following a dominant's order prior to there having been any larger negotiation, I suppose.  And I suppose further that it is implicit consent of both kinds that causes confusion, if not heartache, when things go awry in the early, unsettled stages of relationships. 

JB-- I too loved the line that Jeff quoted above.  Thank you for putting that in words. 

< Message edited by sravaka -- 5/20/2010 1:23:05 PM >


_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 1:36:47 PM   
lally2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

.I liked how Jeff put it. (hi Jeff!) He could have decided, "ick! I don't want anyone submitting to me," and told Carol to stop prioritizing his needs or doing things for him.  The fact that he didn't implied consent.

.


this put me in mind of how it is for many a sub in a relationship with a vanilla.  an unrealised sub that is - the instinct in the sub is to please, give, serve, put their partners needs first etc.,  since the vanilla has no idea whats going on theyre either going to feel uncomfortable and forced into a perpetual state of guilt and gratitude at not being able to reciprocate (the sub wont let him subconciously) and his gratitude is unwanted to.

just realised why my vanilla relationships didnt work out so well - meh!

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to sravaka)
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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 1:41:40 PM   
porcelaine


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It's been said that what master wants master gets. His receptivity to her actions hinges upon that simple statement. It isn't a matter of him only wanting the person, but desiring that specific thing from her as well.

~porcelaine


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His will; my fate.

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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 1:45:19 PM   
lally2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

It's been said that what master wants master gets. His receptivity to her actions hinges upon that simple statement. It isn't a matter of him only wanting the person, but desiring that specific thing from her as well.

~porcelaine



and to be really controversial - this is what separates vanilla from Ds and Ms - its the understanding of the specific thing between them

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to porcelaine)
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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 2:02:00 PM   
sravaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

and to be really controversial - this is what separates vanilla from Ds and Ms - its the understanding of the specific thing between them


I don't think that's controversial at all, Lally...   I certainly want my relationships to work that way--  conscious and explicit.  Maybe it becomes unconscious and implicit eventually...   but the basic principles are still in operation and accessible.

Also, BTDT in vanilla relationships...   I started thinking of it as "not trading in the same currency." 

_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 2:06:14 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

No, I don't attend school and I work for myself... Gee does that make me Dominant?



Yes it does, but not in the insistent sense that this poster is demanding be recognized. We all have our opinions, none are right or wrong.

There are dominant actions, activites, even personality characteristics. That is not remotely close to the same as d/s role. I am in a leadership role that is very dominant in my every day life. Additionally my personality is on the whole probably more likely to be characterised as dominant than submissive. Does that involve d/s roles or are others surrendering to me or am I dominating others in any type of d/s sense when I do those things? No, of course not. Personality isn't role. Activites aren't role. There is no power exchange involved. The argument is nonsenical semantics.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 5/20/2010 2:09:55 PM >


_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 2:36:45 PM   
aldompdx


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This post is in the forum entitled: Ask a Submissive/Slave

The "C types" (controller -- whether labeled as dominant/master/mistress) inject their opinion, when consent therefore has NOT been explicitly granted. It is no wonder that their panties are all up in a bunch about a person surrendering without their consent.

The presumption in this thread is that there exists a continuum of infinite degree between the extreme polarities of control and surrender. While submission or dominance may not be at the same magnitude as "BDSM master/slave," both are nonetheless areas along the continuum between control and surrender. Let us not forget those who switch the magnitude or polarity of their disposition, or may have differing dergees or polarities among the various aspects/layers of their being. Service requires the surrender of one's time and energy. BEING transpires over time. This post does NOT pose the question of whether one needs consent to have any aspect of themself BE submissive or surrendered.

One aspect of this post is to elicit feedback from "submissives/slaves" about the threshold separating conscious surrender by choice, from subconscious surrender by reaction. Lally2 and laurell3 (below) make a salient points in that respect.

Consider if you will, the choice to serve an inanimate or non-conscious object, which by definition cannot give consent. Remember people who once bought a "pet rock?" Have you ever watered a plant of flower? Have you ever removed trash from a public park or a concrete sidewalk? Those are all acts which embody surrender, yet are performed without consent of the direct beneficiary. (In all cases of surrender, the ultimate beneficiary is the surrendered person, who chooses to do so in pursuit of personal fulfillment at one level or another.)

Another aspect of this post is to foster discussion on the issue of whether consent to surrender may be implied through passive acquiescence. That is, if surrender is in harmony with the controller or beneficiary who does not reject it, does that constitute consent? This is in contrast with the reverse, where a controller must at some point obtain explicit consent to impose control over another. Otherwise, it is abuse. E.g. rape of a comatose person, versus bathing and feeding them.

In the currency of life -- personal fulfillment -- what denomination is BDSM? And, why would it not be fungible with a non-BDSM denomination?


(not in reply to any one response)


< Message edited by aldompdx -- 5/20/2010 3:14:40 PM >

(in reply to slaveatia)
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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 2:39:43 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka
I liked how Jeff put it. (hi Jeff!) He could have decided, "ick! I don't want anyone submitting to me," and told Carol to stop prioritizing his needs or doing things for him.  The fact that he didn't implied consent.
Heh, which is an interesting topic in and of itself. This is why I have stopped thinking in terms of consent between Carol and I. I did actually say that (more or less). It failed. I suppose you could say I consented by not divorcing her... but honestly, that decision is just too stupid to be on the list of "available options" in my book.

I think such a thing works outside of the boundaries of a committed relationship. It might work inside a committed relationship where both parties are more in middle of the sub<->dom spectrum and so there's more choice actually available. For Carol and I, these things are not choices and therefor there is no valid consent. There's just she and I trying to muddle along as best we can.

Between us, I've tossed the idea of "consent" out the window along with "choice". Now I think in terms of our individual nature and responsibility.

(And Hi sravaka *waves*)

And to slaveatia
Your little rant.. both of them actually, pretty much failed to accurately describe me and an awful lot of other people on this site. Your concepts of "choice" are not applicable to all of us. Your concept of "submission" does not match mine. Yup, I pretty much think submission exactly equates to "doing what you were asked". You may think of that as "blinded". I think of it as "good hard science". You may think that the words "power" and "control" have meaning. But I can assert that they do not in any mental construct I'm able to make sense of. In other words, I disagree with you. More than disagree actually, I conceptualize the entire thing vastly differently than you do. Does that make me "blind"?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to sravaka)
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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 3:06:48 PM   
laurell3


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aldom,

To the extent that I understand your questions, I will offer the following:

Without consent, or to put it a better way without a requirement by a dominant, a change occurs in me that is neither conscious or controlled on my part in new relationships. There is no set power exchange as it's too early for that. However, I begin to change. My responses to him, the way I view him, the way I view myself when I am with him, talking to him, thinking about him and my willingness to view things in his perspective. Subtly at first, without me even noticing it, and certainly not because of his demand of it or even recognition of it. The change doesn't just occur merely when we are ready for him to make that first real order, it happens over time, because of how I view him and how I view my place with him.

Or it doesn't happen at all and I know it's not going to work.

I wouldn't say it's really nonconsentual and at some point it has to be acquiesed to, I just think it's how I personally progress on my path to actually viewing someone as Dominant over me.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to aldompdx)
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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 3:31:59 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

....HOW does one BE a slave to someone who has not chosen to own them yet without crossing into yappy dog territory?  Sorry if this winds up a hijack, but I think it is vital to the OP actually because it is an ackward phase a lot of people run into.  Do I do a little something to show my interest and intent or do I just sit here quietly and hope I'm the one picked?  I don't know.  Someone please explain what dominant consent IS and HOW it is obtained and maybe these ackward moments can be avoided by a great many in the future. 
      


I think I tried to answer this in the other thread, the one started by you. Perhaps I didn't do such a good job--my brain was a bit bemused that day. I'll try again.

From what you've said about this situation, I think your master is already aware of your interest and intent regarding slavery. You have talked to him about your feelings about this matter, right? If so, then he knows what you want and he chooses not to give it to you. Masters do that, you know, they don't give us everything we want, and they have every right to do so with their slaves, no matter what the slave may feel about it.

I know this situation sucks for you, but it would suck less if you could cultivate a higher tolerance for ambiguity. Learn how to do this: there's plenty of books on the subject. Watch and wait. Patience is your best friend. Rome wasn't built... etc. Act naturally, showing interest in being owned is fine if that is what is natural for you. But don't complain about it unnecessarily. Remember that he is aware of your desire. Think, in non-negative terms, about the fact that he chooses not to give it to you at this time, and aquiese to his will. This will make you a better slave, and ultimately the issue of who invites whom to dance will start to matter less to you. Do what you want within the sphere of freedom you are given, including asking for more control, if you don't feel controlled enough. Make your requests specific, such as "I'm having trouble sleeping, very bad insomnia. Could you help by getting me to bed at a decent hour?"

Work with what you've got and be grateful for it, if possible. Think of how much worse it could be. Remember all the starving single subs on collarme personals who have nobody to control them. ;) Seriously, a lot of submissives and women desiring of slavery would give everything they had to be controlled as much as you are, they wouldn't exactly care about the finer points such as acknowledgement of ownership. Many slaves undergo far more trying circumstances than not having their master acknowledge his ownership of them. You have it rather good, m'dear, at least from my perspective.

As for the orders you are under, obey them to a fault, consistently. I don't mean a perfect record of performance--that is unrealistic as shit happens, and anyone intelligent knows that. I mean if you think you might not be able to follow an order for a good reason, ask ahead about it; if it's something unpredictable, be sure to explain the circumstances in detail. Don't slack off on doing what you're told for trivial reasons (merely not wanting to is trivial). Sometimes you may disobey because you feel so badly about certain circumstances, like this ownership/claiming issue. If you do that sort of disobedience (I call it acting out), give full disclousure immediately afterwards. Explain the emotional state that led up to the disobedience and why it seemed emotionally logical at the time, but do not expect anything from such disclosure, just accept what's given to you in response, whether it be punishment, comfort, or other things. (Especially do not expect to get your way, to prove to him by this that you deserve better treatment. You've been disobedient, after all, and shouldn't be rewarded for it.)

You may wonder why I seem to be giving you the Submissive 101 course? I know you know most of this but, but I'm repeating it because it's easy, during a time of distraction, to lose sight of the fact that these things (1) bring you comfort and reassurance all by themselves and (2) make you more of the sort of person you want to be: his slave. And your merit (although probably already quite high) will only increase in his eyes. Will you eventually get what you want? I don't know. But I do believe it will begin to matter less to you, the more you do the acts of servitude that you can (are allowed) to do.

Remember that you wouldn't be with this dominant if you didn't initially judge him to be intelligent and perceptive. You probably wouldn't be with him if you initial assessment of the way he approaches control wasn't extremely positive. Trust those initial insticts. (His personality hasn't radically changed, has it?) Trust him to know what is best for both of you (and in a master-slave relationship, often what is best for both of you is what is best for him. Tis the nature of the beast. Slaves are there to be used, after all, not the other way around.)

You want something badly right now, that seems clear from what you say about it. But an essential part of the reality of slavery is that you don't always get what you want. What you get is what pleases your master to give you. Your master has chosen to give you this... ambigious situation. Some masters choose other things for their slaves that are much harder to bear. And some slaves have it easier than you. None of that matters. All that matters is how you process and deal with what you have been given. The best thing to do, I believe firmly, is to acquiese and accept what you are given, whatever it may be and be grateful and happy for the parts that are very good. He's expressing his will quite clearly, you know. If he's a dominant he is quite capable of doing things regarding this matter in a different way but he chooses not to. That's his right as the master. So just give in and accept his will. Even if eventually a relationship like this goes to hell or self-destructs, you will feel better for having behaved as a good slave should, and will have no regrets or doubts about your own behavior or ability to be a good servant.

I also know very well how easy it is to fool oneself that, due to the nature of a specfic desire, it is somehow magically exempt from the general category of putting your will before your master's. But it's not. It's still just you wanting to have your way more than you want your master to have his way. That is the essential fact of this situation. It's actually very simple. And this fact, that you are willful in this area, is what has to change if you want to be an obedient slave. It's not an easy change--at all--which is why you run into many more submissives than slaves, and also slaves who are such in (their own) name only.



_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to lovingpet)
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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 3:46:14 PM   
DesFIP


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Me feeding the dog is not me submitting to the dog. In fact, it makes me the dominant. He's my pet and my responsibility. I chose to take on this responsibility when I adopted him.

Same when I fill my daughter's car up with gas. I'm not submitting to her, I'm protecting her from being stranded. As well as protecting myself from needing to show up somewhere at one in the morning with a gas can in hand.

If I choose to buy new clothes even though they aren't needed, it's because I get something out of it. I'm not worn down, forced to do this. I like getting that look of appreciation, the hug, thanks, and being told it was just what they wanted. Hell I buy myself stuff I don't need, but just want. Why wouldn't I also do it for someone I love?


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to CaringandReal)
Profile   Post #: 40
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