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RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 5:27:30 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline 		Surrender vs Submission:

I have to disagree with you here Des,

Taking care of my children is often purely a submissive act: their needs are far more important than my own comfort. The same with picking up a piece of someone else's trash. To me, selfless concern for someone's welfare (or the earth's condition, for that matter) is submissive. However, this selflessness is in no way surrendering. It is in no way relinquishing control. It is not a power exchange. But, to me, it is submission.

January



_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 6:32:37 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		CaringandReal,

quote:

You want something badly right now, that seems clear from what you say about it. But an essential part of the reality of slavery is that you don't always get what you want. What you get is what pleases your master to give you.


quote:

It's still just you wanting to have your way more than you want your master to have his way.


Excellent points. I remember struggling with the two things above in different capacities. However, once I really got down to the nuts and bolts of it all it really became simple. His will is finite but my obedience is infinite.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to CaringandReal)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/20/2010 9:34:53 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

...As per the other post... to stay in an abusive relationship... well, counseling does help to a point. Once again though, once a person begins abusing another person it is easier for them to do it again. If your Dom had cut off one of your limbs would you have left him or would you have stayed and said "Let's get counseling?"...


YOU made the ridiculous generality that once trust is lost "we" leave and take back control...this slave merely gave you an example of where that statement is not true for all submissives...so that perhaps in the future you might leave out the "we" and open your mind to the concept that your One-True-Way isn't the only way.
instead of admitting that your blanket asessment about all who claim the role of submissive was wrong, you want to change the parameters of your previous statement to now include hypothetical situations regarding dismemberment that this slave has no experience with...why is that?

(in reply to slaveatia)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/21/2010 2:10:47 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveatia
I notice though that no one even tried to argue the point I presented about buying a new outfit for a child even though said child did not need it. I find it amusing that so many pick and chose the points to argue and that they cannot hold a debate about the points that are proven beyond any doubt.


I will... bwahahaha...
I can buy my daughter a dress because I think she would like it, because I may think she would need it... but getting her to wear it?  If she wears it she is submitting to you by your assertion, and trust me, my child at 15 wouldn't wear a dress she didn't like just because I might think she needs it or would like it!  Not at 15, not at 10 and certainly never at 5!

You want to control what you think she needs or wants by purchasing it for her - submission is about respecting the choice of the person you are submitting to - so you give her the ability to make the choice for herself and that might mean either keeping the receipt, accepting that the dress might be rejected or giving her the chance to purchase herself - with or without you.

Without any of those caveats, that isn't submission, that's an issue about control - in the same way you are attempting to control this thread by assuming things.  And service is providing something that is required but not always needed.

the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to slaveatia)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/21/2010 2:21:31 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I was going to post on this thread yesterday, but then I wiped and removed before I hit send because I just become so dull and boring about the word consent.  But with the ongoing debate I am going to offer it up (again) because it's my thing.

Consent is nothing more than a happy word to make BDSM seem more acceptable to the outside world.  It allows for the terms of abuse to be seperated from the concept.  Buzz word - like SSC or RACK or funishement or whatever new term people want to *inserthere*.  I have long held the view that consent in relationships is a bit of an oxymoron.  People do not consent, but give in to - or surrender.

Three words 's' - submission, service and surrender - always mixed up and intertwined and usually for the wrong reasons.

the.dark.

< Message edited by RCdc -- 5/21/2010 2:43:48 AM >

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to aldompdx)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/21/2010 2:42:13 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious
The power to leave is held by both parties and isn't an act I would consider as being powerful. The end of a relationship isn't about power, it's about failure, and being the one to walk away is being the one to finalize that failure.


I like that gorgeous jb!

For some people, I guess they like the idea of it being control or power.  For us, it's more authority (another boring repeat of what I have said before).  Master has authority over everything I do and I submit to his authority.  I also serve him and *shockhorror* he serves me!  And we (in the words of the song) surrender to the unknown.
And if it ended, there is no control held by the person who left - just as you say - failiure. or.
The End.

the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to jbcurious)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/21/2010 3:57:19 PM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks to all the "Submissive/Slave" types who have shared their perspectives or experiences in relation to the issue I presented.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/21/2010 6:46:23 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Between us, I've tossed the idea of "consent" out the window along with "choice". Now I think in terms of our individual nature and responsibility.



~~bolded for emphasis!!

I, too, used to think /believe that consent was the very foundation of any successful D/s relationship. But I have discovered that there are too many times one of the dominants in my life have an idea or goal that I never considered. I do have a lively and active imagination of my own. But the men I submit to are just that little bit more deviously clever. I don't remember when it happened, but somewhere along the way the concept changed from “I consent" to the realization “Shit! I agreed he has the authority, that means I gotta do this!”

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/21/2010 11:33:31 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
to me, surrendering to someone who does not want that surrender is, in fact, surrendering to the idea and not the person. in essence, you are surrendering to yourself.


Well said- I have found that there is a lot of this that goes on- as with romantic vanilla love, people often fall in love with the notion of it, the idealized construct they make, instead of the person themselves.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/22/2010 4:48:04 AM   
areallivehuman


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/16/2010
Status: offline 		If I may interject, I am a dominant oriented person.I walk the same route daily and routinely pick up litter. I can walk past trash on the sidewalk if I choose. However, it will still be there tomorrow, and I will notice it again and comment to myself(again) on how ugly it is. Picking up someones trash from the sidewalk today will make tomorrows walk more enjoyable. It is a positive act for MY benefit amd enjoyment. Or I suppose you could call it submitting to MY desire for beautiful surroundings.

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/22/2010 6:49:57 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: January

Surrender vs Submission:

I have to disagree with you here Des,

Taking care of my children is often purely a submissive act: their needs are far more important than my own comfort. The same with picking up a piece of someone else's trash. To me, selfless concern for someone's welfare (or the earth's condition, for that matter) is submissive. However, this selflessness is in no way surrendering. It is in no way relinquishing control. It is not a power exchange. But, to me, it is submission.

January




But I get something out of it for myself. If I didn't, I wouldn't have had them. And I don't talk out the garbage because I am submitting to the garbage or the trash collectors, I do it because I want to live in a clean house. It's not submission, it's a chore that needs to be done. He takes out the garbage sometimes also, he isn't submitting to me. It's Wednesday, garbage gets picked up Thursday morning, so we take it out.

Adding oil to the car isn't submission, it's just doing what needs to be done to keep the car working.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to January)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/22/2010 9:42:26 AM   
wtf4lol


Posts: 6
Joined: 5/21/2010
Status: offline 		It's a neat trick to surrender to something before it exists. That's like standing outside on a sunny day and saying you are being rained on, just because if it did rain you wouldn't go back inside. It's not raining yet. You're not going to get wet just because you consented to surrender in advance of the rain. The cloud has something to say about it. Once it starts raining you can surrender to the weather all you want. Until then all you can do is give notice that you are planning on surrendering if given the chance. The dynamic involved here is the one about the cart and the horse.

(in reply to aldompdx)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/22/2010 10:25:08 AM   
COINT


Posts: 45
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline 		Legally, it requires consent, unless you are being placed into custody by the authorities or conscripted in a nation which has such a program. No one can force you do anything unless enabled by statute really. It would be assault/unlawful imprisonment/sexual assault/ect, now wouldn't it?

(in reply to slaveatia)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/22/2010 11:32:09 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

Between us, I've tossed the idea of "consent" out the window along with "choice". Now I think in terms of our individual nature and responsibility.



~~bolded for emphasis!!

I, too, used to think /believe that consent was the very foundation of any successful D/s relationship. But I have discovered that there are too many times one of the dominants in my life have an idea or goal that I never considered. I do have a lively and active imagination of my own. But the men I submit to are just that little bit more deviously clever. I don't remember when it happened, but somewhere along the way the concept changed from “I consent" to the realization “Shit! I agreed he has the authority, that means I gotta do this!”


wow, id never thought of it like that - but youre right.  the consent at the start is based on what you know of the person and what you think you know about the future, but time and again and not in a bad way (always) the goal posts get moved and something new appears on the horizon.

the consent remains tacit but consent to THAT specifically never was - hmmm - that almost deserves its own thread to be honest.  at what point does consent become moot, probably from the get go - which is also interesting! hm!

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/22/2010 11:49:08 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
the consent remains tacit but consent to THAT specifically never was - hmmm - that almost deserves its own thread to be honest.  at what point does consent become moot, probably from the get go - which is also interesting! hm!
I'm not even sure that between Carol and I there is tacit consent. I'm not sure that she has enough actual choice to be able to consent or not. What she DID do, long before either of us knew anything about BDSM is to choose her partner wisely.

More and more I'm coming to think that "consent" makes a lot of sense when two people are not very close to each other. This might be in terms of a casual play date or possibly a long-term marriage where the people just aren't that close. But when you get two people who are so intimately entwined around and through each other as Carol and I are, pretty much any concept which relies on a foundation of "me/other" is muddy at best.

Personally, I think of that as a good thing... at least for me and Carol.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/22/2010 12:10:53 PM   
StrongSpirit


Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		Think of the girl that puts out for everyone.
Obviously many guys have no problem with that and take advantage of her generosity.
But there ARE men that say "There is no freakin way I am toucing any part of her body with out wearing three layers of latex between my flesh and hers."  As for marrying her, quite a lot of men would laugh at the idea.

Similarly, while some some Doms will take anything, there are those of us with higher standards.  I personally will not accept submission from someone that has not earned it first.  That means she has has to be capable of standing up to the real world and interacting with me as an equal before I consider grind her down under my heel.

In car terms - I refuse to drive jalopies, I only drive Formula One race cars and not everyone is allowed behind their wheels.


(in reply to slaveatia)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/22/2010 1:41:54 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

the consent remains tacit but consent to THAT specifically never was - hmmm - that almost deserves its own thread to be honest. at what point does consent become moot, probably from the get go - which is also interesting! hm!


I'm not sure that consent is moot; there does need to be an overt or implied agreement to......something
before the D/s can begin.
As time goes on, and as leadership points out, if we have chosen wisely then it becomes something else entirely. For me, that something else has to do with keeping my word that I will accept the other's authority.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/22/2010 3:10:28 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

the consent remains tacit but consent to THAT specifically never was - hmmm - that almost deserves its own thread to be honest.  at what point does consent become moot, probably from the get go - which is also interesting! hm!


The authority is fixed. That's what she consented to. Obedience is a continual confirmation of that agreement.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/22/2010 6:47:55 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit
Think of the girl that puts out for everyone.


So, this girl, here, that you mention.

Have you got a phone number, or email, where she can be reached?

Just wonderin'.

(in reply to StrongSpirit)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Does Surrender Require Mutual Consent? - 5/22/2010 6:52:22 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline
1-800-call-me-sunshine



(always happy to help that hunky Animus Rex ... purrrrrrrrr)

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 5/22/2010 6:54:04 PM >

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 60
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