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If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 5:35:48 AM   
michaelGA


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Status: offline 		If we were to write the Constitution today...what would we put in it...and why?

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 5:38:06 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		......as a non-american, i'd like to add something about having a foreign policy based on the same values that the constitution applies to americans.......treat humans as humans first, nationalities second...........

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 5:58:16 AM   
ScooterTrash


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Status: offline 		I don't know that the original was that far off base. Interpretting and upholding it at face value, instead of trying to minipulate it into what fits personal (or group interests) agendas seems to be the issue.

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 7:47:14 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		A really GOOD question Mike, one that will require some thought to really answer.
However, off the cuff, I would have to say it would certainly be a very different document

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 8:23:40 AM   
Evanesce


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Status: offline 		I don't know that I'd put so much into it, as I would remove a few amendments here and there.

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 8:52:29 AM   
RoughNKinky


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Status: offline 		When the original Constitution was written, it was, for the most part, complete and perfect. A few key mistakes were made, slavery and womans sufferage being the 2 that leap to mind. Personally I think the Constitution as been manipulated to fit the needs of those in charge, not the needs of those who put them in charge. Take the 16th amendment, right for the government to levy income taxes. There is no ceiling, they would tax at 100% if they could get away  with it. We lasted 125 years in this country without an income tax. And now what is it? A way for politicians to pit classes against each other, a way to punish the rich for being successfull, and reward certain sectors of the poor for to live off everyone else. We are not a socialist country.. but we seem to be slipping that way...but I digress (ok I am off my soap box.. tax season gets me all riled..)

To answer your question.... I dont think you could write a "decent" constitution today. Obviously my faith in those who govern (and by in large those who put them in charge), is not all that strong. They are too weak, too politically correct, and just too ignorant of history to conceive the gravity and clarity what went into the Founding Fathers efforts.

As for foreign policy. The US has given more money, troops, and sacrifice in the name of humanity than any other country in the history of civilization. Have we made mistakes? absolutly. Is hind site 20/20? always. You have to take care of yourself first.. or you wont be able to take care of yourself, or anyone else, at all

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 8:56:13 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RoughNKinky

As for foreign policy. The US has given more money, troops, and sacrifice in the name of humanity than any other country in the history of civilization. Have we made mistakes? absolutly. Is hind site 20/20? always. You have to take care of yourself first.. or you wont be able to take care of yourself, or anyone else, at all



And we would have any of those things without taxation?

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 9:13:34 AM   
RoughNKinky


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Status: offline 		LOL... no.. we need taxes.. we just need smart taxes.. and like I said.. tax season gets me riled.

But still think what we have is pretty much as good as it gets (with the constitution).. although I would not mind seeing the 8th amendment augmented to remove the "cruel and unusual punishment" clause...

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 9:40:36 AM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelGA

If we were to write the Constitution today...what would we put in it...and why?


I'd first be more concerned about getting them to enforce the Constitution before writing a new one. ;o)

Actually though, I like the Constitution as is. It's a fairly surprisingly complete document at this point. I might add an amendment that says:

"The Right of the People" means the "Right of the People" everywhere it is written and at no point should it be taken to be implied to mean by linguistic magic "The Right of the State".

and

"Persons" and "People" shall always refer to Citizens and Legal Residents and shall in no way apply to Corporations or other such entities.

Now ... if they would just ... enforce the damned thing.

*meow*

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 9:49:49 AM   
asyouwish72


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quote:

Take the 16th amendment, right for the government to levy income taxes. There is no ceiling, they would tax at 100% if they could get away  with it. We lasted 125 years in this country without an income tax. And now what is it? A way for politicians to pit classes against each other, a way to punish the rich for being successfull, and reward certain sectors of the poor for to live off everyone else. We are not a socialist country.. but we seem to be slipping that way...


The next time you drive on an interstate highway or read a NWS forecast, thank the IRS. We have an income tax basically because we need the money. Nobody likes it, but that's how it goes.

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 9:49:58 AM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......as a non-american, i'd like to add something about having a foreign policy based on the same values that the constitution applies to americans.......treat humans as humans first, nationalities second...........


I appreciate the sentiment. Believe me I'm under no illusions about the fact that America has interfered and buggered its way across the globe (but especially in the Western Hemisphere, shit did we do a number to everyone south of us). However, I could barely disagree more. I believe individual sovereignty (of individual human beings, states/provinces and countries) to be one of the best safeguards to ensure free nations exist. I find the dissolution of national boundaries to be one of the absolute worst trends of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. Oppressive and unnecessary laws burden Western society with failed policies like weapons bans and drug prohibition that only serve to criminalize and create crime. Such futile and society damaging efforts come at the behest of international obligations and attempts to reduce the sovereign uniqueness of nations.

Just my thoughts as a nutty libertarian.

*meow*

Addendum: What lead me to this train of thought is the idea that all rights enshrined for Citizens and Legal Residents should be extended to all foreigners. This amounts to the dissolution of national boundaries, since that would include the rights to free egress and assembly.

< Message edited by ArtCatDom -- 4/8/2006 9:51:43 AM >

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 10:53:41 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: asyouwish72

quote:

Take the 16th amendment, right for the government to levy income taxes. There is no ceiling, they would tax at 100% if they could get away  with it. We lasted 125 years in this country without an income tax. And now what is it? A way for politicians to pit classes against each other, a way to punish the rich for being successfull, and reward certain sectors of the poor for to live off everyone else. We are not a socialist country.. but we seem to be slipping that way...


The next time you drive on an interstate highway or read a NWS forecast, thank the IRS. We have an income tax basically because we need the money. Nobody likes it, but that's how it goes.



We could/should go to some sort of flat-tax (or a 3-tiered tax rate with NO loopholes) and send a large percentage of the current tax code and IRS system down the shitter. It is obscene the way government makes life so convoluted.
 
So as to not be accused of thread-hijacking......I think that the Constitution was somewhat brilliantly done, and if it were followed today and applied to all individuals in our nation, it would need little tweaking. Maybe have something in it protecting kink LOL.
 
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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 11:56:22 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

If we were to write the Constitution today...what would we put in it...and why?

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Those who crafted it did a beautiful job and I wouldn't want to see single thing changed about it. It needs to be interpreted as written and strictly adhered to.

If I were going to change anything..... I'd both strengthen and more narrowly define certain clauses as they pertain to the 1st,2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments. I'd also completely eliminate the government's sweeping power to apply eminent domain statutes to the private citenzenry.


 - R


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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 12:22:46 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

We could/should go to some sort of flat-tax (or a 3-tiered tax rate with NO loopholes) and send a large percentage of the current tax code and IRS system down the shitter. It is obscene the way government makes life so convoluted.


The current system is anti-capitalistic as it punishes the productive and rewards the non-productive. I'd gut the whole income tax system and move to a single tier, value-added tax system.

Sorry.... I don't share the progressive theory that re-distribution of wealth improves collective security. A value added system would force the non-productive into becoming more productive.


 - R


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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 1:23:57 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

We could/should go to some sort of flat-tax (or a 3-tiered tax rate with NO loopholes) and send a large percentage of the current tax code and IRS system down the shitter. It is obscene the way government makes life so convoluted.


The current system is anti-capitalistic as it punishes the productive and rewards the non-productive. I'd gut the whole income tax system and move to a single tier, value-added tax system.

Sorry.... I don't share the progressive theory that re-distribution of wealth improves collective security. A value added system would force the non-productive into becoming more productive.


- R



Capitalism is a good thing generally.....it's no fool-proof panacea for the ills of society though.
 
I believe a decent society helps those that honestly need it....and until we actually saw a 3-tiered system, or a single-tiered value-added one in action, I don't know how those needy ones would fare.
 
As for "forcing the non-productive into becoming more productive", yes, often times it would, but I again point to the honestly needy. I was one of them once, and will be grateful the rest of my life that help was available until I was able to stand on my own two feet again.

< Message edited by Level -- 4/8/2006 1:25:27 PM >

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 2:17:02 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"What lead me to this train of thought is the idea that all rights enshrined for Citizens and Legal Residents should be extended to all foreigners. This amounts to the dissolution of national boundaries, since that would include the rights to free egress and assembly. "

....ooooh, that wasn't quite what i had in mind. Borders are borders, quite often geographically determined. What i was more interested in was the concepts of justice. In forgeign policy terms america has made no more or less mistakes than any other on the whole, however it does have a tendency to treat justice for americans as more important than justice for other nationalities. Guantanamo bay recently is a fair example, but i remember an incident some years back when joy-riding american jet pilots ran into an italian cable car. The pilots survived the collision, the innocent family in the cable car did not. however instead of allowing the pilots to stand trial in italy, they were spirited out of the country. If american justice is better than any other form on the planet it ought to apply equally, as Portia has it, justice is indivisible.

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 2:27:15 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		If the Constitution were enforced: nice words.

Take the case of the original 13th Amendment, the Titles Of Nobility Act.

It went something like this:

No person who recieves any title, enumolument or honor from any foreign power may hold any office of public trust.

That is not word for word, but close. It was actually ratified. (proven to be so by two researchers named Dodge and Dunn)  This happened shortly before the civil war and most of the proof was conveniently destroyed, but not all.

See the American Bar Association is a subsidiary of the Bar Association based in England. The CORRECT 13th would effectively prohibit lawyers from holding office, even that of dog catcher. Think of the path of history in that case. At the very least legislation would be in plain English, more than likely.

The new fake 13th was never needed, if you read the words of the original Constitution without interpretation it clearly prohibits slavery. It does NOT say "All White Men are created equal". So just where did it condone slavery in the first place ?

But the civil war was all about slavery right ?

T

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 3:50:46 PM   
Saratov


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Status: offline 		No, it was also about States rights, Taxation and other things besides slavery.

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 4:03:02 PM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

So as to not be accused of thread-hijacking......I think that the Constitution was somewhat brilliantly done, and if it were followed today and applied to all individuals in our nation, it would need little tweaking. Maybe have something in it protecting kink LOL.
 
Level


It is protected because no State Constitution prohibits such consentual activity.

9th Amendment: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

Remember, under our Federalist system and those Amendments, ANYTHING that is not harmful to another citizen or prohibited by the State's Consitution are technically the RIGHTS and POWERS reserved to the People.

:)

Colour me a dirty dirty libertarian. :-D

*meow*

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RE: If the Constitution were written today?I - 4/8/2006 4:24:17 PM   
ArtCatDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

If the Constitution were enforced: nice words.

Take the case of the original 13th Amendment, the Titles Of Nobility Act.

It went something like this:

No person who recieves any title, enumolument or honor from any foreign power may hold any office of public trust.

That is not word for word, but close. It was actually ratified. (proven to be so by two researchers named Dodge and Dunn)  This happened shortly before the civil war and most of the proof was conveniently destroyed, but not all.

See the American Bar Association is a subsidiary of the Bar Association based in England. The CORRECT 13th would effectively prohibit lawyers from holding office, even that of dog catcher. Think of the path of history in that case. At the very least legislation would be in plain English, more than likely.

The new fake 13th was never needed, if you read the words of the original Constitution without interpretation it clearly prohibits slavery. It does NOT say "All White Men are created equal". So just where did it condone slavery in the first place ?

But the civil war was all about slavery right ?

T


Put down the tinfoil hat ... ;)

1. The American Bar is NOT a subsidiary of the British. In fact it never was. The early American Bars were *franchises* of the British INTERNATIONAL Bar. They had to agree to a certain structure and code of ethics, but were independant from the British Bar. It was fairly common for Common Law nations of the late 18th and early 19th centuries to look towards Britain for "proper" structure. This is much the same as Napoleanic Code (Civil Law) nations looked towards France for the "proper way" for a number of decades in the 19th Century.

2. America's legal system is a direct descendant of the British Common Law system. The "title" of Esquire is an archaic remnant harkening back to pre-Colonial days when members of the legal practice were required to be of noble bearing. That means they would at least bear the title of "Esquire". It is a traditional honorific that has had little to nothing to do with noble titles for hundreds of years.

3. Since the "Esquire" granted by American Bar Associations is a DOMESTIC title, the Amendment would not be applicable to US attorneys.

4. Virginia (seen as the essential ratifier by right wing conspiracy nuts) considered ratification but Virginia's Senate rejected the Amendment, meaning that State did NOT ratify that Amendment.

5. The "new" 13th Amendment was needed to supercede the authority of States to prohibit or allow slavery.

These are all easily verified with minimal research.

*meow*

< Message edited by ArtCatDom -- 4/8/2006 4:27:00 PM >

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