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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 1:35:15 PM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		I already promised I would use a condom with you... how much MORE do you want?????

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 1:45:04 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Tough talk from 500 miles away...:)


It's soooo cute when you get your little anteater chest all puffed up like that....awwww

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 1:48:48 PM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Tough talk from 500 miles away...:)


It's soooo cute when you get your little anteater chest all puffed up like that....awwww



Almost as cute as your ass would look........ all welted!........

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 1:51:54 PM   
laurell3


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Status: offline 		Tough talk from 500 miles away.....

ok derailing complete.....carry on...my apologies

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When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 3:22:30 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I can't imagine how you would ever get anything accomplished. But I can see arguing a lot over who gets to make which decision.
"I command you to buy fudge ripple ice cream"
"No, no, I order you to get strawberry."

Or as someone else said, picking a restaurant for dinner would be a nightmare.

Besides what would be the point? It wouldn't make me feel as though he were this strong powerful man in control of everything, and that's what I look for.

But if you're talking a sub/sub relationship, then they both service top each other. No pretense at dominance but lots of attention to each others needs.


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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 4:15:29 PM   
SocratesNot


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Status: offline 		The point of whole thing is that by controlling each other they could grow as persons much faster than without it, becauseit is always way easier to give orders to others than to yourself. For example if I am overweight it is harder for me to force myself to go on a diet and to exercise, than would it be to prescribe a dietary or exercise regimen to someone else. So, when my partner tells me "you must eat only healthy food and run 20 minutes each day" it is much easier to do this to please my partner than it would be if I motivated myself alone.

Also, this could have very exciting consequences, because, the orders that we will receive, depend somewhat on the orders that we give. So, if I give my partner an order to do something she likes a lot, she will probably give me an order to do something that I enjoy. And vice verse, I I give her unpleasant orders, they will return to me. With time, we will both know exactly what pleases other the most and will perfectly understand each other.

Also, very deep connection can be established this way. In standard D/s relationship the Dominant never knows exactly what the sub is going through while obeying, and also the sub never knows how much thrill and enjoyment the dominant gets from being in control.

In mutual slavery, both parties would share all experiences and would know exactly how does the other feel, because they all passed through the same things themselves.
This way both rewards and punishments would be perfectly gauged to them.

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 4:18:50 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		You're missing the point that some of us aren't wired to accept orders from someone who also takes it from us.
Plus some of us aren't able to give orders or punishments. I'm not dominant by nature, I could not do this inside a committed relationship and still feel able to obey him or desire him.

Me switching is a hard limit.

Plus that 'do as I say, not as I do' doesn't work for me. You want me to exercise, then you better be doing so on your own.


< Message edited by DesFIP -- 5/20/2010 4:19:57 PM >

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 4:27:48 PM   
SocratesNot


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Status: offline 		OK, I understand that mutual slavery would probably only work in switch/switch couples.
But, for those who are wired this way, I think it would be very good and a lot of fun.

When it comes to exercise and other simmilar things, our partner would order us to do things that we actually want to do and need to do, but are unable to do this on our own because of the lack of the strength of character.

For example:

You must exercise!
Ok, you must stop smoking.

End result, one exerciser more, one smoker less, two people happy dominating and submitting to each other.

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 4:38:56 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

A completely new concept came to my mind - that of mutual slavery. Is it possible to achieve in reality?

The Mutual Slavery would consist of the following:

There are 2 people, and each of them has absolute control over the life of the other but not over his/her own life.

Simply put, I decide what you do, but I have no power to decide what I myself will do, this is your deceision (decision).

You decide what I do, but you have no power in deciding what you yourself will do, this is my decision.

So I must obey you.
You must obey me.

Both of those people would be Master and Slave to each other simultaneously.



Waaaaaaaay the fuck too confusing!

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 4:43:46 PM   
SocratesNot


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:)

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 4:56:43 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

OK, I understand that mutual slavery would probably only work in switch/switch couples.
But, for those who are wired this way, I think it would be very good and a lot of fun.

When it comes to exercise and other simmilar things, our partner would order us to do things that we actually want to do and need to do, but are unable to do this on our own because of the lack of the strength of character.

For example:

You must exercise!
Ok, you must stop smoking.

End result, one exerciser more, one smoker less, two people happy dominating and submitting to each other.


Des is actually a pretty smart cookie.

While I really do believe that anything is possible if it's what both people want, I think that would be part of the issue right there.  I tend to think that most folks who identify with the term submissive or slave do so specifically because they function better with someone else in control of the relationship.  Which is great for half of your premise.   The part that's missing is that they don't want to have control over another person.  (Keep in mind, I'm keeping switches off the table for this.  If you were talking about two switches, you might have something.)  So, you might have yourself a situation where each party was perfectly content receiving commands because the other was in control of them, but not especially happy in giving them.

Also, I think you have to factor in that some folks can not turn over control to someone that they have viewed as giving their personal power over to someone else.  Even if that happens to be the within the two people who have made the arrangement.  There are a good number of folks out there who feel they wouldn't do well with a switch leading a dynamic.  I'm not saying that is right or wrong, but I can promise you evidence from right here on these boards that there are people out there who feel that way.


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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 5:11:31 PM   
laurell3


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Status: offline 		I don't know about the two switches thing working honestly...we're all very different in how we view it, but I can be both roles at times, I can NEVER be both at once. It wouldn't work for me personally as a switch. Even with other switches there has to be defined parameters/roles for me. Yes I can play at power struggle with another switch, but even then someone is still clearly the more dominant in the couple. I guess that's the problem I see with the concept overall. In every relationship, vanilla to neopolitan, there is a power balance that exists. This seems to me to be attempting to really have none and I can't fathom how that would possibly happen.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 5:16:22 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		Actually ordering someone to quit smoking or start exercising usually doesn't work. Smoking is an addiction, very hard to break and being told to do it cold turkey is tantamount to setting someone up to fail.

Same with exercise, you need to make a new habit and you need to figure out why you're so resistant. Orders without understanding what lies underneath just doesn't work.

I've had doctors order me to lose weight and I am submissive. Doesn't work.

And I think you're incorrect about assuming you would understand what the other person gets out of it. Because you could well be getting different things out of it. Some people do this for the pat on the head at the end. Others do it because they are service or obedience wired. I'm in it for emotional transparency.

He knows most of what I get out of it because I tell him. I know what he gets out of it because he tells me. Communication can fill in those gaps.


< Message edited by DesFIP -- 5/20/2010 5:22:20 PM >

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 5:33:20 PM   
porcelaine


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Status: offline 		SocratesNot,

quote:

OK, I understand that mutual slavery would probably only work in switch/switch couples.


I don't know if it is mutually a switch/switch thing. But you'd definitely need to identify with both roles. I can. However as LadyPact has mentioned:

quote:

I tend to think that most folks who identify with the term submissive or slave do so specifically because they function better with someone else in control of the relationship.


quote:

Also, I think you have to factor in that some folks can not turn over control to someone that they have viewed as giving their personal power over to someone else.


Now I'll fess up. There have been occasions when I could envision myself being in control of the other person. But this is where it all goes downhill. I have never met anyone that desired a slave (as described to me) that would ever permit her to control him. In their eyes it's an oxymoron. And I'm not ruling out the possibility that he switches.

He simply will NOT switch with me. In his mind my role is fixed where he's concerned. If I made the mistake of switching (you know I did) I'd come to realize why I was the subordinate in the relationship. On the submissive side, I think many would prefer not to see their partner in that role. In fact, they might lose a little respect for him if it occurred.

~porcelaine


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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 5:50:09 PM   
SocratesNot


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Status: offline 		It seems that the whole thing about mutual slavery would only work with people who are at the same time very egalitarian and respect each other regardless of power, and who are also kinky, so like this dynamics of controlling and being controlled.

As long as someone requires his partner to always be in authority in order to respect him, mutual slavery would be impossible.

For me personally, I would respect my partner even more if she was comfortable with surrendering authority. I wouldn't count this as weakness.

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 5:52:39 PM   
SocratesNot


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Status: offline 		Now to real life examples. I know a couple (they are totally vanilla BTW) where the girlfriend simply banned her boyfriend smoking in her presence. So her boyfriend never smokes when he is around her. And he is not particularly submissive type.

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/20/2010 7:07:12 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

Des Said:
Actually ordering someone to quit smoking or start exercising usually doesn't work. Smoking is an addiction, very hard to break and being told to do it cold turkey is tantamount to setting someone up to fail.

Yup, that's the standard line and yet it does work for us. I could not only command Carol to do such a thing, but I could also command her to let it go inside as well as out. Yes, it'd work... yes, it has worked. No, it's not magic.

My experience is probably not common, but it is mine and valid.

quote:

SocratesNot said
It seems that the whole thing about mutual slavery would only work with people who are at the same time very egalitarian and respect each other regardless of power, and who are also kinky, so like this dynamics of controlling and being controlled.
Just as a note, for some of us, the controlling and being controlled part has nothing to do with being kinky. Again, just a note. Carol and I don't "like" this dynamic. It's just "us".

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 5/20/2010 7:09:11 PM >

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/21/2010 2:54:06 AM   
aldompdx


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Status: offline 		There are some cultures in which one is obligated to fulfill the specific request of another. Thus, one learns to be humble, impeccable in their word, and have a very deep respect for the imposition of power upon another.

I.e., SELF MASTERY.

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/21/2010 8:17:35 AM   
Andalusite


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Status: offline 		Actually, I know a few switch/switch couples in similar relationships to what you described, and they are happy and don't seem to have power struggles. Personally, although I'm a switch, I so far haven't reacted with both dominance and submission toward the same person. I can top and bottom to the same person, and I've been in kinky relationships that didn't have much of a power exchange component. We certainly weren't vanilla, since that would have meant no S/M or bondage! Generally, they deferred to my wishes most of the time, but if something was more important to them than it was to me, it made sense to accommodate them. Anyway, that dynamic won't work for a lot of people, but it clearly is possible and desired by others. The same is true for plenty of other D/s and M/s dynamics.

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RE: Mutual Slavery - is it possible? - 5/21/2010 4:30:11 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
It seems that the whole thing about mutual slavery would only work with people who are at the same time very egalitarian and respect each other regardless of power, and who are also kinky, so like this dynamics of controlling and being controlled.


You can't both be egalitarian and want to be in control or be controlled. They're mutually exclusive.


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