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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/20/2010 11:14:34 PM   
heartcream


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See? LadyCimarron can dig a man who digs the gentle penultimate power of the lady bug. It is a new day, I will use lady bug (hehe, nice addtional use!) in this new day!

This little light of mine Ima let it shine!

Friendo sounds like an excellent brand name for non-toxic hotdogs! Too funny. Brainstorming business ideas!

domi: Suck my dick.

subsusie: Nope not right now but I will have a bite of your Freindo! Slurp (where is fukintroll?)

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 3:19:04 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

They cheated. NPR says they started with Holly's meatloaf.


Amazing! I never would have thought it possible to grow anything in that meatloaf.....let alone a lifeform.


Holly's meatloaf contains mycoplasma capricolum bacteria, e. coli bacteria, and mycoplasma mycoides bacteria? 



Uh....yum? *turns green*


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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 5:14:37 AM   
LadyEllen


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Unusually I am going to have to pffft (that is agree) with Treasure, but only to the extent that I cant see how this is "creating life" given the way it appears to have been done.

But then I'm not a geneticist - in fact there are few in the world, and its likely that much of the achievement and innovation has been lost in translation via the press to we the laity.

What appears to be the claim of Venter (?) is that they created a new species by computer, rather than that they created life. When some smarty-pants discovers how to put together and manipulate the base chemicals of life so as to conjure them into life, then I'll be impressed.

But as mentioned, I - like I assume everyone else here - probably lack the knowledge to be suitably impressed by this present development. A bit like an Amazon tribe that has no idea bacteria exist, thereby failing to appreciate the impressive nature of anti-biotics.

E

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 7:20:32 AM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

When some smarty-pants discovers how to put together and manipulate the base chemicals of life so as to conjure them into life, then I'll be impressed.


That's exactly what happened. Read the article again. As someone who formally studied molecular biology, I am impressed as you should be. When I was a student 15 years ago,the Human Genome Project was in its infancy and only a few minor species had even been completely sequenced. This experiment was every budding scientist's wet dream and most of us didn't think we'd see it in our lifetime. This is a big deal and certainly worthy of the Nobel Prize. I would bet on it.

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 7:37:21 AM   
LadyEllen


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There's the problem I pointed out Brainiac - most of us dont get the reference parameters of the conversation, so we entirely miss the point.

Still though, my impression is that they didnt use the base chemicals but what I'll call (probably wrongly) precursor chemicals ready-made from the base chemicals?

As an analogy, my understanding is that they had all the parts and assembled a new engine, rather than smelting ore and casting or pressing parts that then of their own accord formed into a new engine.

E

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 8:35:42 AM   
brainiacsub


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In this case, E, you are missing the forest for the trees. You are focusing on the chemicals rather than the definition of life itself.

All DNA is made up of four base molecules - adenine, cytosine, quanine, and thymine. These are paired together in various combinations and lengths to uniquely define each species. Venter's team took the known DNA blueprint for one species of bacteria, combined the bases into the exact sequence in a "test tube", and transplanted it into a second species transforming the second into the first. But, the real accomplishment is that the artificial sequence came to "life" - it could replicate itself. Think Jurassic Park here. That movie came out when I was a student, and no doubt inspired Venter's work. Every scientist of that time debated the "authenticity" of the premise of that movie. Most agreed that it was great science fiction, but not likely to happen in our lifetime. One of the big hurdles at that time was a lack of understanding of the minimum sequence of DNA necessary to create life. No scientist believed that we would actually start by "creating" complex creatures such as dinosaurs. It took Venter's team 15 years to discover that a sequence of apx 52,000 base pairs was the minimum requirement for life. So he artificially assembled those base pairs, and viola, it came to life.

The real implications go beyond just turning one species into another, but eventually to create entirely new lifeforms. These can be engineered to produce proteins that would cure disease, "eat" toxins, or create new synthetic fuels.

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 9:26:51 AM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen


As an analogy, my understanding is that they had all the parts and assembled a new engine, rather than smelting ore and casting or pressing parts that then of their own accord formed into a new engine.

E

After re-reading your post, I wanted to comment specifically on this part. What do you think is the difference between the engine parts and the ore? From Venter's experiment, the 4 molecular base pairs would be the "parts" and the only smaller component that could be the ore would be the atoms themselves. I can assure you that that the fact he used the molecules rather than the atoms makes this experiment no less significant. That would be like saying your award winning souffle is less impressive because you started with eggs rather than raised your own chickens.

The other interpretation I imagine from your comment is that you are less impressed because he only took the chemical building blocks of one species and used those to transform a second species rather than create a brand new species from "scratch." Again, don't focus on the species, but on the definition of life. He took the chemical building blocks -which are not alive - and assembled them so that they become a known living species (the DNA can replicate itself). The species is irrelevent. What it significant is that the chemicals now "live."

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 9:30:32 AM   
mnottertail


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WObfcDIf6lY

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 12:48:34 PM   
DomKen


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This is a huge step. They killed a cell, by removing all of its nuclear DNA. Then they inserted entirely synthetic DNA, sequence based on an existing strain of bacteria but not drawn from that source, into the dead cell. The cell started functioning again, including producing a blue pigment which is caused by a marker gene they inserted. by this point many generations of bacteria later every protein in thos eliving reproducing cells is the product of transcription of the synthetic DNA.

These guys are a lock for a Nobel.

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 1:50:26 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WObfcDIf6lY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xos2MnVxe-c

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 1:53:16 PM   
mnottertail


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Colin Clive----  I do a kinky version of that.

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 2:07:57 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Unusually I am going to have to pffft (that is agree) with Treasure, but only to the extent that I cant see how this is "creating life" given the way it appears to have been done.


To be honest, LE... my initial post wasn't to belittle the scientific achievement, but rather dumiguy's assertion that scientists created life from nothing.

Funny, but my dictionary gives the definition of "nothing" as, well... nothing.  Nada.  Zip.  Zilch.  Less than something or anything.

Now if the scientists had waived their beakers and produced life out of truly nothing, then...

As for the thread title that man tells God to beat it... I think that's just nastiness and bias on the part of domi.  As illustrated by my example, "God" gave man the ability to easily produce life from existing building blocks eons ago.  I doubt that mankind is ready to use their just-discovered methods to replace what we already have. 

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 6:45:32 PM   
Sanity


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How hard can it possibly be to get a Nobel. Wasn't a certain someone gifted a Nobel for doing absolutely nothing at all?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This is a huge step. They killed a cell, by removing all of its nuclear DNA. Then they inserted entirely synthetic DNA, sequence based on an existing strain of bacteria but not drawn from that source, into the dead cell. The cell started functioning again, including producing a blue pigment which is caused by a marker gene they inserted. by this point many generations of bacteria later every protein in thos eliving reproducing cells is the product of transcription of the synthetic DNA.

These guys are a lock for a Nobel.


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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 7:05:38 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


How hard can it possibly be to get a Nobel. Wasn't a certain someone gifted a Nobel for doing absolutely nothing at all?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This is a huge step. They killed a cell, by removing all of its nuclear DNA. Then they inserted entirely synthetic DNA, sequence based on an existing strain of bacteria but not drawn from that source, into the dead cell. The cell started functioning again, including producing a blue pigment which is caused by a marker gene they inserted. by this point many generations of bacteria later every protein in thos eliving reproducing cells is the product of transcription of the synthetic DNA.

These guys are a lock for a Nobel.


Okay, look I gave it back! Why can't you just let it go?



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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/21/2010 8:16:24 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


How hard can it possibly be to get a Nobel. Wasn't a certain someone gifted a Nobel for doing absolutely nothing at all?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This is a huge step. They killed a cell, by removing all of its nuclear DNA. Then they inserted entirely synthetic DNA, sequence based on an existing strain of bacteria but not drawn from that source, into the dead cell. The cell started functioning again, including producing a blue pigment which is caused by a marker gene they inserted. by this point many generations of bacteria later every protein in thos eliving reproducing cells is the product of transcription of the synthetic DNA.

These guys are a lock for a Nobel.


Why don't you try and win one and then let us know.

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RE: Man tells God to beat it. - 5/22/2010 2:38:17 AM   
shallowdeep


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The work, while very interesting, is definitely not the creation of life. I caught part of an interview with Craig Venter on Charlie Rose tonight in which he agreed with that when answering a question about this point, saying, "I don't think we've created life. We've created a new life form." The episode should eventually be available online.

The actual paper is freely available here as a PDF: Creation of a Bacterial Cell Controlled by a Chemically Synthesized Genome. There's also a fluffier version of what the team did here: Synthetic Genome Brings New Life to Bacterium.

If you are curious, while they may not be freely accessible, it also helps to take a look at some of the previous publications by the same team leading up to this, namely:
Genome Transplantation in Bacteria: Changing One Species to Another (2007)
and
Creating Bacterial Strains from Genomes That Have Been Cloned and Engineered in Yeast (2009)

Just to sort of recap what was actually done: The genome of one bacteria, Mycoplasma mycoides, was sequenced. A few minor modifications to the sequence were specified and this altered sequence was then created using a process that starts from just base nucleotides – but relies heavily on living cells to put things together. The eventual result was a "synthetic" genome contained in a chromosome. This synthetic chromosome was then successfully transplanted into living cells from a somewhat different bacteria, Mycoplasma capricolum. Offspring containing only genetic information from the synthetic M. mycoides genome were then isolated. The final result was a colony of viable cells containing only a genome (almost*) perfectly identical to the altered genome they set out to synthesize.

I actually think LadyEllen's analogy of assembling parts versus truly creating something from scratch is fairly valid. This is really about manipulating existing life, not about creating it. The techniques used rely heavily on harnessing existing, living organisms. The base chemicals you start with aren't alive, but the process to create something that can reproduce and replicate the synthetic genome is entirely dependent on already having life. E. coli and then and a yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, are used to splice the synthetic DNA sequence together and construct the chromosome. The final step requires a preexisting, living recipient cell similar to that of the original organism to be provided for the chromosome to "hijack" in a manner not dissimilar from how a virus works.

So, this doesn't really create life… and certainly not in an absence of life. Actually being able to control the output of the entire process is pretty impressive, though. Is it revolutionary? Not particularly. This was more about the perfection of techniques and their application on an unprecedented scale (1.08 Mb) than something truly new. It's not something that took anyone by surprise. It's actually almost mildly surprising it took them as long as it did for this latest step. In an interview with CNN Venter noted, "This, when it finally worked, we were more relieved than excited." Is it a breakthrough? Arguably, although major milestone might be a better description.

Whether or not it could be worth a Nobel Prize probably depends on what happens with it. At present, it's not entirely clear how practical the technique will be. This NYT article, for instance, has some quotes that question the value versus more traditional insertion and deletion methods.

That said, the technique is interesting because it may offer a potentially unprecedented level of control in genetic engineering. There are some limitations but, within those, this makes it possible to choose completely arbitrary alterations to a genome and then create a cell with only the new, human-specified, synthetic genome. If that can be coupled with a minimal genome (and, incidentally, this demonstration was not a direct continuation of the efforts towards with Mycoplasma genitalium - although that's doubtless a next step on their agenda) it would make it much easier to figure out what effect various changes to a genome were having and would limit unforeseen interactions with genes not of interest that tend to crop up when making genetic modifications. Potentially, this could be a significantly faster, better way to do some things. It could also turn out to be mostly a dead end in practice.

*One E. coli transposon managed to find its way in, along with a handful of single base mutations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
They killed a cell, by removing all of its nuclear DNA. Then they inserted entirely synthetic DNA, sequence based on an existing strain of bacteria but not drawn from that source, into the dead cell. The cell started functioning again...

Just to clarify a bit, that's not how they actually achieved the genome transplantation. The recipient cells absolutely must be alive, and were even still in possession of their original DNA (bacteria don't actually have a nucleus you can remove à la egg enucleation used when cloning much larger eukaryotes). The trick was to include a tetracycline resistance gene in the synthetic M. mycoides genome. They then stressed the M. capricolum cells, which tends to cause bacteria to take up DNA that happens to be floating around near them - in this case the synthetic chromosomes. The synthetic DNA is similar enough that the cell happily treats it as its own (or at least it did once they identified and deactivated a restriction enzyme that sliced their initial attempt to pieces). With two copies of a chromosome, the cell divides, usually sending one copy to each daughter. Placing the progeny in a tetracycline laced medium later kills off all the cells that lack the synthetic version of the chromosome with its tetracycline resistance, leaving only organisms with the synthetic genome.

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