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RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 5:34:41 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Since many of you complained about me being intolerant of practices of other people, now I would like to ask you a completely theoretical question.

If you are a completely sane, sensible human being and you consider certain practice to be totally abhorrent and objectionable, not just because you don't like it, but because you think it is utterly wrong because of some logical or ethical reasons, how do you deal with the possibility of existence of another sane, sensible human being who does not consider that very same practice to be objectionable at all?

The standard answer is 'live and let live'.....which isn't the case at all......we all draw the line somewhere....

And that's what you do....you draw the line according to your own personal ethics.....now I'd imagine for most that would be consent.....and adult.....and you'd probably throw a few others in too.....

For example....a German bloke advertised on the internet for people who wouldn't mind being eaten.....he managed to build up a portfolio of willing particpants as it happens.....even turning some away.........consenual yes.....adults yes......cannibalism? hmmmmm....

So yeah....it's a delicate balance.....and a tricky one to achieve......where you do you draw the line.....is being eaten considered sane? does a civilised society have a responsibility to say: "look.....this really isn't a good idea" and help them out accordingly?

Where you start with the premise that it's a good idea to regulate someone's behaviour who wants to be eaten....then where are you going to draw the line in terms of regulating people's behaviour?

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Post #: 61

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 5:36:47 AM

NorthernGent

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Oh and to answer the title/question posed......the essence of tolerance is not allowing people to do whatever they want....it's providing framework where people can behave as they wish within the wider picture of social harmony.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 62

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 5:42:42 AM

LillyoftheVally

Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The standard answer is 'live and let live'.....which isn't the case at all......we all draw the line somewhere....

And that's what you do....you draw the line according to your own personal ethics.....now I'd imagine for most that would be consent.....and adult.....and you'd probably throw a few others in too.....

I remember having this discussion on IC, where YKIOK is bought out all the time, I pointed out that if someone comes to a forum and asks for your opinion and you think its risky then you have every right to say so.

However there are the right and wrong venues to state your opinion, also there is a difference between dangerous and simply not liking something and the problem is untangling which is which. There are many people who think that BDSM is wrong and in any expression an indicator of mental illness, of course we don't agree but who is right?

I think you are right that getting the balance, drawing the line is very difficult.

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Post #: 63

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 5:56:10 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

of course we don't agree but who is right?

And that's exactly right.....Lilly.

And part and parcel of this is that people are different.....

Consent may not negate harm for some.......depends on whether or not you're consenting from an informed position......while for others they can consent to whatever..thrive on it and deal with it no problem.....

So where does that leaves us?....there's no 'one size fits all'.....and probably a few other things too?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 64

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 6:00:37 AM

SocratesNot

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Joined: 5/17/2010
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quote:

- Why are you here?

Because I want to learn a lot about BDSM lifestyle. Also, by asking questions that are a little controversial (For example, by stating negative elements that I see in certain relaionships, and asking people to try to defend such relationship) I can get answers that contain much more fundamental truth than in case that I stayed on the surface and was always polite. If I just read Leadership's profile I would only know WHAT happens in this relationship, and that I don't understand or approve it. However, by asking questions and stating my objections to such kind of relationship, he can explain to me why is such relationship perfectly normal despite looking very strange to me on the surface. I want to learn about inner workings of relationships and things that I personaly don't like or don't approve of; once I really learn it, with such understanding I will be able to appreciate such relationships not just to tolerate them.

There are 2 approaches to tolerance.
First is, "OK, I don't get it, I find it disgusting, they are idiots for doing such things, but they have to choose to do whatever they want, so I will be tolerant and I will not complain" - In this approach we use the verb "TOLERATE" you tolerate something DESPITE very strong dislike and disapproval.
But, even though I am capable of using this approach this does not satisfy me.
I don't want to merely tolerate the relationship. I want to appreciate it. In order to appreciate it, I must understand it completely. This is the second approach and I am more likely to pursue this second approach than first.
The second approach could be described like this:
"OK, I don't get it, I find it disgusting, but hey, they are probably not idiots as long as they are pursuing it, I will tell them my objections towards such relationship and they will try to defend it. From their responses I will learn about subtle inner workings of the relationship, and then I will be able to appreciate it, not just tolerate it."
This is my favorite approach.
Of course, this approach is not very popular, and this approach is somewhat nosy, but being nosy is maybe the bad side of the positive trait called curiosity. Excessive curiosity is being nosy, and being nosy describes me to a certain extent.

quote:

- What type of relationship do you want?

I want egalitarian relationship with kink elements. I am mostly a switch, and I am capable to enjoy both taking control and surrendering control. The nature of my relationship would also depend on my partner. If she is more dominant to me, she would be more often in charge, if I am more dominant, I would be in charge most of the time. However I wouldn't accept being in an unequal relationship. As a dom, I wouldn't try to exploit, degrade or humiliate my partner. As a sub, I would not allow such to be treated in such way.

quote:

- When you see something you don't like what do you do?

Try to understand it as much as possible, even if it involves stating my personal objections and asking controversial questions. My final goal is to appreciate such a relationship in the end, even if I started with not liking it.

quote:

- What have you learned since being here?

I have learned that if I want to be nosy and to extract some valuable information I must be much more subtle in approach and try to use as non-offensive language as possible because people tend to be offended too easily. However this is not always possible, because if you are too subtle or avoid certian words you may miss your main point.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 65

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 6:56:30 AM

sunshinemiss

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Since many of you complained about me being intolerant of practices of other people, now I would like to ask you a completely theoretical question.

If you are a completely sane, sensible human being and you consider certain practice to be totally abhorrent and objectionable, not just because you don't like it, but because you think it is utterly wrong because of some logical or ethical reasons, how do you deal with the possibility of existence of another sane, sensible human being who does not consider that very same practice to be objectionable at all?

Your question has a faulty premise. You presume that another person's focus is on what is wrong... Many people focus on what is wrong *for them*.

There is a wonderful verse in the Christian scriptures. It says in essence don't judge the people that eat meat because they do so for the glory of G*d. Also, don't judge the people who don't eat meat - they do so for the glory of G*d.

best,
sunshine

_____________________________

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(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 66

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 6:56:36 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

The second approach could be described like this:
"OK, I don't get it, I find it disgusting, but hey, they are probably not idiots as long as they are pursuing it, I will tell them my objections towards such relationship and they will try to defend it. From their responses I will learn about subtle inner workings of the relationship, and then I will be able to appreciate it, not just tolerate it."
This is my favorite approach.
Of course, this approach is not very popular, and this approach is somewhat nosy,

It isn't unpopular because it is nosy but because it is rude. The better approach would be to say that you've read about X activity. That you can't see the draw to it but that you know many people do enjoy it and could someone please explain it to you.

It is rude to attack someone and hope they will be put on the defensive. It is polite to ask.

You start out being rude to people and you never progress to politeness. The impression you have given everyone here is that you are rude, self centered, and neither able nor willing to see anyone else's viewpoint.

Is this really how you want people to think of you? Because the people who would answer honestly if you asked politely won't explain when you are attacking. So you aren't getting the info you claim to want.

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Post #: 67

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 7:15:13 AM

SocratesNot

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Joined: 5/17/2010
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quote:

It isn't unpopular because it is nosy but because it is rude. The better approach would be to say that you've read about X activity. That you can't see the draw to it but that you know many people do enjoy it and could someone please explain it to you.

It is rude to attack someone and hope they will be put on the defensive. It is polite to ask.

You start out being rude to people and you never progress to politeness. The impression you have given everyone here is that you are rude, self centered, and neither able nor willing to see anyone else's viewpoint.

Is this really how you want people to think of you? Because the people who would answer honestly if you asked politely won't explain when you are attacking. So you aren't getting the info you claim to want.

I agree with you. I will take your advice and try to follow it in the future. My biggest problem is that I have a habit of stating my objections before asking questions. Now I will try to first ask questions, and only object later, and only if I really have to.

I have a question for you - Would I be rude if I first asked some questions and then stated my objections? I mean, does stating objections at any time make you automatically a rude person?
Is it polite at all to openly state your objections at any time?
If not, which is the right way to reconcile your objections with certain practices that you don't understand? If you want to understand something, but you have objections, how to deal with them, if they are still present in you, even after you are given some answers?

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 5/23/2010 7:49:56 AM >

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 68

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 7:21:20 AM

SocratesNot

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Joined: 5/17/2010
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BTW, I think the debate about tolerance is going in a good direction. I enjoyed reading responses by NorthernGent and LillyoftheVally.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 69

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 7:25:19 AM

zephyroftheNorth

Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
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quote:

<snip>(For example, by stating negative elements that I see in certain relaionships, and asking people to try to defend such relationship)

First of all, what you see as a negative may not be negative to the people in this relationship. Secondly who are you to ask them to defend it and why on earth should they? This is part of why you irritate the fuck out of me, your contention that you know so much better than everyone else and that we should change to do things your way.

You are brand new here, I suggest you stop creating threads and do some reading of the threads that already exist. You would see that a) there is no right way to do things and b) judging people who do things differently is a no-no here.

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Post #: 70

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 7:30:59 AM

DomImus

Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
Since many of you complained about me being intolerant of practices of other people, now I would like to ask you a completely theoretical question.

If you are a completely sane, sensible human being and you consider certain practice to be totally abhorrent and objectionable, not just because you don't like it, but because you think it is utterly wrong because of some logical or ethical reasons, how do you deal with the possibility of existence of another sane, sensible human being who does not consider that very same practice to be objectionable at all?

As long as the activity involves consenting adults, doesn't involve me, doesn't violate any major laws and doesn't adversely impact non-consenting participants in the periphery then I don't give it another thought. I don't attempt to apply my logical, ethical or moral compasses to the activities of others. Provide a more detailed question and I will provide a more detailed response.

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(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 71

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 7:32:56 AM

SocratesNot

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Joined: 5/17/2010
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quote:

First of all, what you see as a negative may not be negative to the people in this relationship.

The very reason I state negative things about the relationship is BECAUSE I ALREADY KNOW THAT I AM DELUDED. I already know that these very negative elements are actually positive to them. But I want them to explain to me what it is that is positive in that so that I can stop being deluded.
I want to fully understand the positivity of the very same things that I have objections to.

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 5/23/2010 7:33:45 AM >

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)

Post #: 72

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 7:36:31 AM

kiwisub12

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I still don't understand why you are here. From your description you are vanilla and like a little kink in the bedroom. While that is fine, most people on this site are way beyond that.

And if this really does describe you, then why are you here really?

We can't add anything to your lifestyle because we aren't about your lifestyle, and if you aren't all that vanilla, then you need to start listening to what people are saying, not just automatically negating everything because it doesn't fit with your world view.

Could it be that you are afraid of parts of you and want evidence to squash those bits?

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 73

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 7:39:39 AM

xxblushesxx

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
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I actually found this to be an interesting thread. I appreciate that the OP stated his opinions and listened and responded to others. Not everyone is going to agree with/understand wiitwd.

The remarks he made about Carol were yes, the remarks of a child who does not yet understand the grown up world, where instead of black and white only there are many shades of grey, but I don't think they were meant maliciously.

All in all, it's been an interesting and enlightening read.

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Post #: 74

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 7:42:18 AM

Jeffff

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slut!

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Post #: 75

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 7:50:41 AM

xxblushesxx

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From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

slut!

Wondering exactly how easy one has to be to be considered a slut by an anteater....*ponders*

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A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com

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Post #: 76

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 8:00:16 AM

Jeffff

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I use the term liberally.

I am kind and thoughtful!

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Post #: 77

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 8:02:12 AM

SocratesNot

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Joined: 5/17/2010
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quote:

From your description you are vanilla and like a little kink in the bedroom. While that is fine, most people on this site are way beyond that.

And if this really does describe you, then why are you here really?

Maybe because I want to learn about this little kink, and maybe because there would be a little more kink in my relationship.

quote:

Could it be that you are afraid of parts of you and want evidence to squash those bits?

Yes, it could be the case. Frankly, I can relate on some visceral level even to some of the most objectionable practices and I can find some appealing and hot elements in them.
However, I still find them no less objectionable, even if they are attractive to me on some level. And my choice would be to NOT participate in them.

In order to participate in something I need some logical, rational and ethical validation of certain practice, and not just attraction to it on visceral level.

In the case of Carol and Jeff I can find elements that are very hot and attractive in their relationship. However, my reason and ethics tells me that there is something quite wrong about such relationship.
I have a lot of internal conflicts concerning many elements of BDSM.

Added after editing:

Also my philosophical inclination in making decisions is to give precedence to reason and ethics, and not to visceral desires.

However, in some cases, I don't act upon this inclination, instead I act according to my desires. However, after doing so I can sometimes feel a little guilty.

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 5/23/2010 8:10:57 AM >

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Post #: 78

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 8:09:35 AM

LillyoftheVally

Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
In order to participate in something I need some logical, rational and ethical validation of certain practice, and not just attraction to it on visceral level.

I don't mean to sound rude here, but all of your recent responses have been screaming to me to say this. No one here has to defend themselves to you, I have yet to meet anyone here who's desire is to convert people. If you want to do something then sure ask about it, if you don't understand something thats fine too, but people shouldnt be put on the offensive to convince you that they are ok.

Something I can relate to though is your mentioning internal conflicts, I had internal conflicts initially the biggest probably being identifying as a feminist and yet wanting what I saw as anti feminist things. Luckily I listened, there are some pretty amazing people here who have a great ability to help you understand things, but if you alienate everyone here that won't happen, which is a shame because you will be missing out.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 79

RE: The essence of tolerance - 5/23/2010 8:15:02 AM

zephyroftheNorth

Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

First of all, what you see as a negative may not be negative to the people in this relationship.

The very reason I state negative things about the relationship is BECAUSE I ALREADY KNOW THAT I AM DELUDED. I already know that these very negative elements are actually positive to them. But I want them to explain to me what it is that is positive in that so that I can stop being deluded.
I want to fully understand the positivity of the very same things that I have objections to.

And yet what you are doing is judging others' relationships to be wrong based on what you feel, the perfect example being this:

quote:

In the case of Carol and Jeff I can find elements that are very hot and attractive in their relationship. However, my reason and ethics tells me that there is something quite wrong about such relationship

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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(in reply to SocratesNot)

Post #: 80

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