The essence of tolerance (Full Version)

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SocratesNot -> The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:09:25 AM)

Since many of you complained about me being intolerant of practices of other people, now I would like to ask you a completely theoretical question.

If you are a completely sane, sensible human being and you consider certain practice to be totally abhorrent and objectionable, not just because you don't like it, but because you think it is utterly wrong because of some logical or ethical reasons, how do you deal with the possibility of existence of another sane, sensible human being who does not consider that very same practice to be objectionable at all?



Jeffff -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:12:48 AM)

By ignoreing it.

Look dude, we are ALL judgemental. We are ALL intollerant of certain things.

Bur most of us just shrug and think to ourselves, "that's not for me"



LillyoftheVally -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:16:05 AM)



In a BDSM context? I don't engage in it.



DarkSteven -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:16:58 AM)

<---------  Violently disagrees with Jeffff's answer but allows him to keep his viewpoint in the spirit of tolerance

Kumbaya....



laurell3 -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:17:08 AM)

oh Jefffffff........babe.....look over there....free baseball tickets!

You're wasting your time. He's going to get the same answers he's gotten before and he's not going to listen. LP just told him http://www.collarchat.com/m_3126176/mpage_3/key_/tm.htm#3217059, Who decides what is right and wrong? Apparently in his very small mind he does and he's here to save us all from ourselves and that is the only answer he will ever believe.




Jeffff -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:19:36 AM)

It's Stevens beard... I didn't want to say anything...... but it is SO not lifestyle.


I thought EVERYONE knew it was a goatee or nothing at all.

There... I said it! and I will not appologize!!!!!!!



lally2 -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:20:52 AM)

depends what it is, if its bestiality, paedaphilia or snuff then id probably tell them what i thought of them before exiting through the nearest door with child, animal or terrified fantasy-gone-wrong victim in tow.

if it was anything else that involved safe, sane and concensual and was between two consenting adults id respect their choices and keep my opinions out of the equation.



LadyPact -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:21:47 AM)

This comes up quite often around here, at least in the case of My opinion regarding those who cheat on their unknowing spouses.

Basically, I state My opinion.  I tell them that in My view, they are lying to their spouse if their agreement is fidelity and they are not upholding that.  I tell them that, in My view, it is against My stance of not harming a non consenting person through the course of wiitwd.  (If the spouse didn't consent to them sleeping with someone else, the potential to harm them indirectly by the actions is very real.)  That it could have devastating effects on their life and the life of their spouse and possible other family members.  I suggest to them that they realize the potential outcomes.  More often than not, I suggest that they talk to their spouse to see if there are better options available.  If it's someone that I know in the real world, and I know this is the current behavior they engage in, I tend to remove Myself from their life.  That way, I'm not drawn into it.

That's it. 



DarkSteven -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:24:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

It's Stevens beard... I didn't want to say anything...... but it is SO not lifestyle.


I thought EVERYONE knew it was a goatee or nothing at all.

There... I said it! and I will not appologize!!!!!!!



Jeffff, if I wasn't so *&!*#&^!@*ing tolerant, I would have Aileen and katy beat you up.

This message has been brought to you by those who believe in sweetness and light and tolerance.



leadership527 -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:30:03 AM)

For the most part, I agree with my evil counterpart... ignoring it.

However, if I feel strongly enough about it, then the right thing to do is to try to convince enough other people that it is wrong also. If enough other people agree with me, then a law is passed and the thing becomes illegal. Some how or the other, all us humans need to get along.

To use an extreme example, I feel pretty strongly that barbecuing babies is unacceptable and wrong. I really don't give a crap whether my neighbors have deeply seated religious convictions and for THEM it is a positive and affirming thing. Conveniently, lots of other people agree with me so it is prohibited by law. And I would absolutely call the cops.

This is a rare example where I agree with you SocratesNot. The BDSM community likes to bandy about tolerance as if it were some sort of panacea to all social conflict and it is not. At some point, things become intolerable. What that point is will vary from individual to individual and item to item. When that point is passed, then there are recourses as there must be. Anything else would be anarchy and us humans demonstrably do not like living in anarchies.

In a slightly more realistic example (and I stress "slightly" here), it is conceivable in my mind that it would come to my attention that my neighbors were engaging in some BDSM practice that I found intolerable. I want to stress here that we'd be talking about something that, at least in my mind, was not subject to debate. Given my tolerances, I'm pretty sure such a thing would also be blatantly and highly illegal. But all the same, I have an active imagination and I can imagine such things. And unlike the preponderance of collarme, I absolutely assert that it is my right and obligation to act in such a circumstance. In the end, it will be up to the courts to sort it out.

By definition, if the courts were to find the defendant guilty, then I am not infringing on their rights. It is NOBODY's right to live in a society and ignore the laws.

So... to SocratesNot's dismay with my relationship. Yes. If he were to find what I do so intolerable that you morally must take action, then I encourage him to do so. Honor is not preserved by inaction.



SocratesNot -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:31:08 AM)

Well, thanks for all the answers some of them seem very sensible to me. I hope this topic will go in a good direction.
I will try to learn from your responses so that I can incorporate this into my own attitude.



VaguelyCurious -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:40:24 AM)

ba-dum-CHING!



LadyAngelika -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:41:17 AM)

In general, I have my opinions and I don't have very strong opinions about what others do unless there are non-consensual victims.

Unfortunately, I've learned that with some people, there is no point in debating with them about differences as even when you try to be collegiate and say let's agree to disagree, they will dig in their heels even more and start with the name calling. I have better things to spend my energy on then dealing with this.

I've learned that in general in life like on this board, there is a lot of one-true-wayism and people will defend their way to the point that their blinders only see what they want to see. People can be different than I and though I might not be able to put myself in their shoes 100%, I can consider that they are doing what is right for them, again, as long as they are doing things in a consensual fashion.

I also strongly believe in concerning myself to what I have influence over and letting go of what I don't have any control or influence over. It really helps when wanting to keep a healthy and sane balance in one's life.

- LA



SocratesNot -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:42:18 AM)

quote:

For the most part, I agree with my evil counterpart... ignoring it.

However, if I feel strongly enough about it, then the right thing to do is to try to convince enough other people that it is wrong also. If enough other people agree with me, then a law is passed and the thing becomes illegal. Some how or the other, all us humans need to get along.

To use an extreme example, I feel pretty strongly that barbecuing babies is unacceptable and wrong. I really don't give a crap whether my neighbors have deeply seated religious convictions and for THEM it is a positive and affirming thing. Conveniently, lots of other people agree with me so it is prohibited by law. And I would absolutely call the cops.

This is a rare example where I agree with you SocratesNot. The BDSM community likes to bandy about tolerance as if it were some sort of panacea to all social conflict and it is not. At some point, things become intolerable. What that point is will vary from individual to individual and item to item. When that point is passed, then there are recourses as there must be. Anything else would be anarchy and us humans demonstrably do not like living in anarchies.

In a slightly more realistic example (and I stress "slightly" here), it is conceivable in my mind that it would come to my attention that my neighbors were engaging in some BDSM practice that I found intolerable. I want to stress here that we'd be talking about something that, at least in my mind, was not subject to debate. Given my tolerances, I'm pretty sure such a thing would also be blatantly and highly illegal. But all the same, I have an active imagination and I can imagine such things. And unlike the preponderance of collarme, I absolutely assert that it is my right and obligation to act in such a circumstance. In the end, it will be up to the courts to sort it out.

By definition, if the courts were to find the defendant guilty, then I am not infringing on their rights. It is NOBODY's right to live in a society and ignore the laws.

So... to SocratesNot's dismay with my relationship. Yes. If he were to find what I do so intolerable that you morally must take action, then I encourage him to do so. Honor is not preserved by inaction.


I must agree completely with this post. When it comes to me taking action against you, I must admit that at this moment I don't have enough information to say that you are guilty of anything, especially because I haven't communicated with Carol about your relationship. But if I had insider information and still hold opinion that your relationship is abhorrent (which I don't think, I just think it is very risky), I would take your advice and act upon my convictions.



Jeffff -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:55:37 AM)

That was a lovely response. It warns us all that you have decided what is wrong and right.

How thoughtful of you.

You are a douche. You have no value here at all. You might as well go fishing with Freado.

You are dead to me.



SocratesNot -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:56:32 AM)

quote:

In general, I have my opinions and I don't have very strong opinions about what others do unless there are non-consensual victims.


I think exactly the same.

Now, there is a thing that I am intolerant about, just because I think that this may be non-consensual.
This thing is TPE or even more precisely "internal enslavement". Of course, the decision to enter such relationship was completely free decision of the slave, so the relationship started as completely consensual.

However, there are great many masters and slaves who claim that in TPE a slave actually does not have a choice. S(he) must obey. S(he) is actually unable to disobey. S(he) is also unable to leave the relationship because his / her will and control is completely transfered to the Master or Mistress.
In such situation we can no longer talk about consent because the slave lost the ability to disobey. Not because Master or Mistress prevent them from disobeying by threats or something like that, but because there is something inside them that simply prevents them from disobeying or leaving relationship, no matter what happens inside the relationship.



LadyAngelika -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:56:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

That was a lovely response. It warns us all that you have decided what is wrong and right.

How thoughtful of you.

You are a douche. You have no value here at all. You might as well go fishing with Freado.

You are dead to me.


Domi's really rubbing off on you... is that from all those hours of him rubbing up against you? ;-)

- LA



laurell3 -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:58:47 AM)

La, read the guy's posts.....we're all mentally ill and need saving and his research from reading profiles and no experience whatsoever has convinced him that he can be our therapists......really....not making this shit up.....oh and by the way while he's doing this "therapy" he's going to get a little sex on the side.....yeah...just sayin.....



LadyAngelika -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 10:58:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

In general, I have my opinions and I don't have very strong opinions about what others do unless there are non-consensual victims.


I think exactly the same.

Now, there is a thing that I am intolerant about, just because I think that this may be non-consensual.
This thing is TPE or even more precisely "internal enslavement". Of course, the decision to enter such relationship was completely free decision of the slave, so the relationship started as completely consensual.

However, there are great many masters and slaves who claim that in TPE a slave actually does not have a choice. S(he) must obey. S(he) is actually unable to disobey. S(he) is also unable to leave the relationship because his / her will and control is completely transfered to the Master or Mistress.
In such situation we can no longer talk about consent because the slave lost the ability to disobey. Not because Master or Mistress prevent them from disobeying by threats or something like that, but because there is something inside them that simply prevents them from disobeying or leaving relationship, no matter what happens inside the relationship.



You just pulled a big *yeah I agree, but... * which means you don't really agree with what I said, which is ok, but own it.

In response to the above, I have one answer for you: Don't hate cos you can't relate.

- LA



LadyAngelika -> RE: The essence of tolerance (5/22/2010 11:00:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

La, read the guy's posts.....we're all mentally ill and need saving and his research from reading profiles and no experience whatsoever has convinced him that he can be our therapists......really....not making this shit up.....oh and by the way while he's doing this "therapy" he's going to get a little sex on the side.....yeah...just sayin.....


laurell, do I look like the kind of person who gets the least bit concerned about what someone, especially someone on a message board, thinks of me? ;-)

- LA



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