RE: Statue of Liberty

RE: Statue of Liberty (Full Version)

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thompsonx -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 6:07:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Diem Bien Phu was in 1954 .... about seven years before Kennedy began "officially" sending in Sp Ops. I think there is historical concensus (me and a couple other guys [:D]) we were wiping up the shit left by French Colonialism (by stupidly substituting American Colonialism) Truman had the britts rearm the japs to fight the viet minh. The u.s. had spent over a billion dollars and supplied more than 300,000 small arms to the french before 1954. The usmc flew air support and supply for the french at dien bien phu.

dovie -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 6:18:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or True Dom, but that theory only works if there are jobs. Have you looked for a job lately ? I got word yesterday, that my job as I know it ends in August, and I have no idea what to do as of yet. Now mind you that I can build you a house, even a car, and up until digital broadcasting, a TV. I am not without skill. But to turn skill into money, someone has to have the money to spend. T I'm sorry about your job situation (((Termyn8or.))) I send you good wishes in having the prosperity you seek. Regards, dovie

dovie -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 6:25:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened Is there a reason why those immigrants cannot be added by going through the legal process? The quotas are flexible, the law is not. I wouldn't disagree. But any of the immigration that we need is going to be a messy thing that We as born Americans aren't going to jump up and down and love. Consider when your Grandfather came and the last great influxes of the late 1900's. There were riots in many cities between groups and tensions with the Born Americans of that age. I guess I worry that there seems to be such a movement afoot to hold onto what is percieved is our Founding Fathers values or intentions. It is a futile struggle. This country will change and has changed with all these years. The best we can do is accept and work with the framework that they laid down and try to do the best we can as a Nation. At some point Spanish will be the legal language. I think we better get used to it That's the facts man, that's the facts!...Ahhh math-I love it. Numbers don't lie. Might as well stop all the fussing. There will be a Hispanic president sometime in the next 100 years; our whole socio demographic is changing..and that's a fact. Regards, dovie

Elisabella -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 6:54:58 PM)
That's actually pretty true. My father came to the US from Germany in the 1950's, when Hitler was still fresh in everyone's mind. And my aunt married a man from Moscow in the middle of the Cold War. That's one of the big issues that I have with illegal immigration - I'm a legal immigrant, I have family members who were legal immigrants, and there's a process. I'm not entirely against amnesty, for people who have been in the US a long time and have settled into the US as their home, but at the same time amnesty for long-term migrants isn't the same as shrugging at the continual influx of new illegal immigrants.

thornhappy -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 7:45:57 PM)
The first generation may not learn the language, but the 2nd does. quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened No one wants to obey the laws, learn the language or blend their cultures into what we refered to as the 'melting pot'. People seem to be more interested in being divided into hyphanated groups of victims.

Aynne88 -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 7:58:19 PM)
Question for those that think beyond the surface...not saying I agree or disagee. Who really holds the torch?

subtee -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 9:08:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella That's actually pretty true. My father came to the US from Germany in the 1950's, when Hitler was still fresh in everyone's mind. And my aunt married a man from Moscow in the middle of the Cold War. That's one of the big issues that I have with illegal immigration - I'm a legal immigrant, I have family members who were legal immigrants, and there's a process. I'm not entirely against amnesty, for people who have been in the US a long time and have settled into the US as their home, but at the same time amnesty for long-term migrants isn't the same as shrugging at the continual influx of new illegal immigrants. See, this is what I don't get. Do you believe the process that your father went through and to which your Aunt's husband were subjected is the same for illegal immigrants today? You're anti-immigration for others that may be saving their own lives as your relatives likely did? Everybody wants to shut the door once they're in. Humanists, we're not. Opportunists are applauded only after it's a done deal. Then it's a capitalistic dream. Once you're here, it's an affront and an outrage that anyone else would try to do the same. Why are you folks the most maligned? Why can't you empathize, having it in your so recent past? They're no different than your relatives. They want to come for better things. They're doing the best they can with what they have to work with.

Elisabella -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 9:38:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee See, this is what I don't get. Do you believe the process that your father went through and to which your Aunt's husband were subjected is the same for illegal immigrants today? You're anti-immigration for others that may be saving their own lives as your relatives likely did? Definitely not for illegal immigrants, who generally overstay a visa or find a way to get into the US completely undocumented. And no I'm not anti-immigration, and I know firsthand how difficult it is to just decide to move to another country, it's pretty regulated. The US system probably needs an overhaul. quote: Everybody wants to shut the door once they're in. Humanists, we're not. Opportunists are applauded only after it's a done deal. Then it's a capitalistic dream. Once you're here, it's an affront and an outrage that anyone else would try to do the same. Why are you folks the most maligned? Why can't you empathize, having it in your so recent past? They're no different than your relatives. They want to come for better things. They're doing the best they can with what they have to work with. I can definitely sympathize, but sympathy doesn't answer the question of what to do about it. If we're going to have things like borders and nationalities and immigration departments then we have to draw a line between "legal" and "illegal" immigration. IMO just wanting to move to a different country isn't enough to give you the legal right to. Maybe I say that because I am currently in the process of immigrating, I understand the regulations are supposed to be designed to make sure the nation will benefit from the immigrant's presence, not vice versa.

subtee -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 9:57:39 PM)
And what is your emergency in needing something to do about it? How are you harmed? What fucks up your day? I'm 1/8th native American. Cherokee. Trail of tears for my relatives. Ain't we ironic?

Elisabella -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 10:05:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee And what is your emergency in needing something to do about it? How are you harmed? What fucks up your day? Well I personally don't need anything to do about it. I'm discussing the concept, not my personal plans to fix the world [;)] quote: I'm 1/8th native American. Cherokee. Trail of tears for my relatives. Ain't we ironic? Just because land inevitably changes hands doesn't mean there's no reason to fight for it.

xXsoumisXx -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 10:06:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Explains your hatred of the Steelers. [;)] I am a Seahawks fan. I have a very strong hatred for the "Stealers" (sorry, couldn't help myself [:)] )

subtee -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 10:09:59 PM)
You don't mean native Americans didn't fight for it? You don't mean "our" land will be taken by illegal aliens? "If we're going to have things like borders and nationalities and immigration departments then we have to draw a line between "legal" and "illegal" immigration." What would you like to do? (Given that you've had the benefit of your Father's immigration.)

Elisabella -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 10:15:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee You don't mean native Americans didn't fight for it? You don't mean "our" land will be taken by illegal aliens? No, I mean they did. You seem to think it's justified that they did. Why isn't it justified for the US to? quote: "If we're going to have things like borders and nationalities and immigration departments then we have to draw a line between "legal" and "illegal" immigration." What would you like to do? (Given that you've had the benefit of your Father's immigration.) Are you asking about my personal choices or what I think should be done about immigration?

subtee -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 10:22:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: subtee You don't mean native Americans didn't fight for it? You don't mean "our" land will be taken by illegal aliens? No, I mean they did. You seem to think it's justified that they did. Why isn't it justified for the US to? I'm thinking that a nation of immigrants is hypocritical to be outraged by immigrants. quote: "If we're going to have things like borders and nationalities and immigration departments then we have to draw a line between "legal" and "illegal" immigration." What would you like to do? (Given that you've had the benefit of your Father's immigration.) Are you asking about my personal choices or what I think should be done about immigration? Let's say both. I can't really imagine a difference and it's your thread and your words I quoted.

Elisabella -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 10:38:26 PM)
Well as far as my personal choices go, I'd say the benefit of my father immigrating legally is the same as the benefit I have from immigrating legally - security and the ability to become a citizen and fully integrate into a new country. As far as what I'd do to help the problem with illegal immigration, I'd consult with people involved in the system who are more well versed in all the intricacies involved, and bring up things like migrant worker/working holiday programs, skilled labor requirements, bridging visas for people who overstay business or student visas, and other ways to help narrow the gap between "legal" and "illegal" while at the same time cracking down on new illegal immigrants and businesses that hire them under the table. I'd want to work on securing the southern border, obviously there's a lot of big fucking desert areas but with all the tech we have I doubt the best we can come up with is a handful of troops and vague thoughts of a long fence. What would you do?

subtee -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 10:49:15 PM)
I would open the process so immigrants could be legal. I'm thinking Ellis Island here. I would expend my energies and money not on fighting a losing battle with a wall or armed guards picking off one and another poor man, woman and child, but on removing the impetus to lure them here illegally--namely on the corporations and businesses that profit on their backs. Much less expensive and much more expedient, in my view. Make them examples and make them accountable.

Elisabella -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 10:59:25 PM)
Heh well I don't think we should be shooting at people. Unless they're armed or something. And yeah, a huge part of the problem is the fact that people are hiring illegal immigrants, but IMO we should focus on both sides. It should be harder to profit from hiring illegal labor, and it should be harder to profit from illegally migrating.

subtee -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/27/2010 11:03:10 PM)
Again, I find it interesting that you are the daughter of immigrants and feel the need to keep them out and I am the granddaughter of "natives" and I say let them in.

Vendaval -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/28/2010 12:19:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Do you think the above should reflect current US immigration policy? & Do you think it ever reflected US immigration policy, or was it poetic lip service? I think the inscription is symbolic rather than literal. It is definitely very inspirational. Do you think there should be limits on immigration to the US, in any form? By limits I mean anything - a limit on the number of people allowed to come, language requirements, education/job skill requirements, criminal background checks, etc. There should be criminal background check and the equivalent of a high school education and/or needed employment skills for adult immigrants. There should also be a current version of a guest worker program for unskilled labor. Do you think the US is still the 'land of opportunity' where anyone willing to work hard enough can succeed? No. Much of the American Dream has eroded with the loss of manufacturing jobs and the middle class. We are increasingly becoming a class based society of the very wealthy and the working poor.

Moonhead -> RE: Statue of Liberty (5/28/2010 3:17:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Diem Bien Phu was in 1954 .... about seven years before Kennedy began "officially" sending in Sp Ops. I think there is historical concensus (me and a couple other guys [:D]) we were wiping up the shit left by French Colonialism (by stupidly substituting American Colonialism) Oh sure, they'd left a bit of a mess behind them. I did find it very strange that your army made exactly the same daft mistake at dien bien phu as the Foreign Legion did, really. Still, if Kennedy and Johnson had paid any attention to recent colonial history, they wouldn't have got you in there in the first place, I suppose.

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