RE: Are you mentally ill ? (Full Version)

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crazyml -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 11:58:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I am beginning to notice quite a disturbing trend with fora, a situation where if a person has an unusual viewpoint, they can be accused of being mentaly ill, just what is this all about


I guess, for me at least, it's a question of extent. Most of the "Unusual viewpoints" I see would strike me as "quirky" rather than mentally ill. But, I have also seen examples where posters have expressed desires that, if they are genuine, would absolutely, 100% pop them into the category of "bonkers".

quote:



As far as I am aware the only people who can diagnose mental illness are the psychiatry profession, not any other, despite what they think they know or have read,


No ethically responsible psychiatrist would make a diagnosis on the basis of someone's posts in a forum. But they may express an opinion, just as the rest of us are absolutely, and fundamentally entitled to express ours - despite what we may think we know, not know, have read, or not have read.

Again, I don't toss the "you're mad" line around often (not sure when I last did) - but, if someone posts that it is their sincere desire to hack a leg off and serve it up to their dom for supper, then please forgive me if I express my non-professional opinion (I stress - not a diagnosis) that that person is fucking bonkers.

quote:




so what is it with people, is this accusation of mental illness a means of destabilising an other in a conversation or what ?


I've not seen much evidence of it used as a ploy in this way. But I suppose it could be.

quote:



Could it be because of the work of the psychiatric establishment more and more differences are being discovered and those differences applied where necessary, people, the general public like to see these differences in people all around them ?

I didn't quite follow this.
quote:



Why is it, I ask of those who are keen to suggest mental illness in others, what do you get from it, is it a feeling of superiority by the dumbing down of  another based upon a self belief, or is it you do genuinely care for that individual ?


I've just not seen any people here who I'd say were "keen to suggest mental illness in others".

quote:


Is it even just an act of obfuscation, by the labelling of others with a malady, you automatically get the moral high ground?

Is this the new weapon to discredit others in debate and conversation ?

You've kinda asked this already
quote:


But there is one good thing out of this drive to discover and label mental illness, for the more advanced the professionals become, no doubt the more labels will be created and with that a majority might form, a majority of those classed as mentally ill until such a point they hold up their hands and surrender with the ultimate understanding that every single one of us is either mentally ill, or just plain different and that is the be all and end all of it.

I think you do the psychiatric community a very slight disservice here - the goal of discovery and classification is, I would argue, motivated by a desire help people better manage mental illness when it occurs - not to find a way of labelling all of us.
quote:


We then of course have to learn to accept our differences.


I doub't that we will (alas).


To the OP:

Mental illness is a properly complex topic in the context of BDSM as well as being hugely controversial. And I may be about to piss some people off... but what the hey!

- I do believe that there is a higher than average incidence of disfunction within the BDSM community. I don't know this, but that is the impression that I have.
- I regularly see profiles that, if genuine, are describing people who, in my unqualified and subjective opinion, would be far better served getting therapy than logging on to a kinky web site.
- I believe that there IS a line where a responsible person has a duty to ask "is this Sane?"

We draw the line in different places, some will take a very libertarian view ("It's your life/body do what the fuck you want to it") others will take a utiliarian view ("Do what ever you like as long as you don't create shit for other people") and yet others will take a paternalistic view ("I get to decide what you can do..."). Personally  I'm a utilitarian  (intellectually at least)- If you're into CP, CBT, Body-Mod - then fill your boots. But even then, there's a line - (it's an emotional one, and somewhat at odds with my "utilitarian" stance) where a voice says "Fuck that! If you really desire that then you need help". And when this happens I'm conflicted - because ethically I feel a responsibility to speak out even if my non-emotional utilitarian head is saying "You promised yourself you'd stay out of it!".

A couple of examples - Body mod (implants, enlargements, reductions..)  = all fair game.

Extreme self mutilation - Get help.

So what's the distinction - Well, I can't give you a clear cut distinction, I just know it when I see it (This is why we need psychiatrists to classify and codify btw).

SO... if you see people rushing to judge, and you suspect they might be doing it for selfish motives or simply to undermine the other party then give me a shout and I'll join you in condemning them. But I suspect that most of the occasions when someone is regarded as bonkers by another, it's because that person genuinely believes it.

If you see me say someone's a nutter - then call me out on it. It could be that I'm just responding to a gut reaction which is as likely to be based on irrationality and prejudice as anyone else's - and by calling me out you'll be doing me a favour by helping me challenge that.

But if I see someone describing desires that I, in my subjective and non-qualified, opinion believe are signs of being nutty, I have a responsibility to myself and to them to say so.






LadyNTrainer -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 11:59:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
I AM mentally ill

I do not consider you mentally ill. You are a dominant with an interesting mind.



Most people would not consider me "mentally ill" either, but my neural architecture is not standard-issue by any means.  You can be differently wired - in some cases, very differently indeed - and still extremely high functioning.  At this point, it is questionable as to whether the "illness" portion of the label applies.  LadyEllen's definition of a visible dysfunction is much more on target, IMO.



SirPumpy -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 12:14:18 PM)

The mentally ill tag is far too often used on people who are just plain old different and I believe this is because some people are not happy unless everyone and everything is in a neat categorised box.

It is also a control tactic.

Take for instance the "Disruptive" child in class, this may be a child who has an enquiring mind or has been encouraged by their parents to ask questions.

Or in the 50's if your wife didnt agree with your household policies and became "Difficult" you'd have a chat to your family doctor who would prescribe a little something to calm her down and make her compliant sometimes leading to shock therapy.

Add a constant barrage of accusations regarding your mental health and after a while you'd definitely become a tad twitchy as self doubt and uncertainty set in.

I believe that if you lead a happy life and are productive then you are entitled to some odd behaviour so long as you harm no one including yourself.

SP



Syrox -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 12:18:24 PM)

I would also suggest that there is a certain amount of internet bravery involved too.  When shielded by a screen and an anonymous user name some prefer to let everything hang out, which others will find extreme or even disturbing where as others simply set into their every day personalities.

And think of it this way... while they are here 'amusing themselves' they arent out on the streets doing REAL damage.





pahunkboy -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 12:25:17 PM)

back in Americorps we did this team building exercise.  each member was to jot down a word to describe each other member.

papers shuffled.

then the snips reached the target-  all very flattering.

but after wards- I had to see why some left over snips were near my area/envelop.
those comments were more interesting then the ones the leader let "thru".

LOL



LadyPact -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 12:30:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
No ethically responsible psychiatrist would make a diagnosis on the basis of someone's posts in a forum. But they may express an opinion, just as the rest of us are absolutely, and fundamentally entitled to express ours - despite what we may think we know, not know, have read, or not have read.

This I agree with completely.

quote:

Again, I don't toss the "you're mad" line around often (not sure when I last did) - but, if someone posts that it is their sincere desire to hack a leg off and serve it up to their dom for supper, then please forgive me if I express my non-professional opinion (I stress - not a diagnosis) that that person is fucking bonkers.


In the two cases (yes, exactly two, which is why I didn't specifically align with the OP's determination of being keen on the practice) that I thought the person on the other side of the screen needed serious help with their mental health, it didn't have a thing to do with their kinks. 

quote:

- I regularly see profiles that, if genuine, are describing people who, in my unqualified and subjective opinion, would be far better served getting therapy than logging on to a kinky web site.

I agree with this as well.

There have been a couple of threads in the last few days that have touched on this subject.  I've yet to be convinced that anyone offering their opinion is trying to say that their opinion has as much merit as an actual diagnosis.  We see people on the forums give their opinion about any other topic or situation that someone presents.  Why would an opinion on this be any different?

quote:

SO... if you see people rushing to judge, and you suspect they might be doing it for selfish motives or simply to undermine the other party then give me a shout and I'll join you in condemning them. But I suspect that most of the occasions when someone is regarded as bonkers by another, it's because that person genuinely believes it.

I happen to agree with this as well.

I enjoyed a good deal of your reply.  I only shortened it to comment on specific areas.









pahunkboy -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 12:32:09 PM)

DSM 5 tho (which ever is close to publish)

I think has some silly   ailments.    Why?   To sell pills.

THINK-   least effective dose.



Aneirin -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 12:45:01 PM)

I once had a neighbour, more of a friend really, she was a senior psychiatrist, head of department at the local special hospital, this woman was nuts, she even revealed she went into psychiatry to try and work out her own issues, and this is common with those involved in the profession. The trouble was, she never did work out her own issues, they just got worse and to the point where she was self prescribing all sorts of medications and that not hitting the mark, she turned to booze and became a serious alcoholic to boot. It was her alcoholism that finished her career, she was asked to take early retirement. So maybe I knew a bad example of the profession, but the parties I attended were noteworthy, a bunch of psychiatrists and psychiatric nurses doing all sorts of medication, and each one of them to me seemed they just did not have at least one foot in reality. But having seem the psychiatric profession when they party, I just think the gods help us if we ever came under the auspices of that lot.



barelynangel -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 2:14:39 PM)

To me, it simply is people who are so concerned about what other people are doing that they try and find validation by "knowing" something about a person that they really have NO CLUE about. It is humorous how many people take an anonymous online message board and make it so personal that they seriously believe they can decipher if someone is mentally ill by posts. This new bandwagon social network that seems to be taking everything over are interesting to watch, its almost like high school wherein one person thinks they are all that and try and say something to someone then all their friends run up to try and validate them and banter back and forth between each other about someone. Its really sad simply because this is an anonymous public message board. But it appears even the Admins are getting on the bandwagons and advocating this validation of people (if a recent thread is anything to go by) -- so i doubt we will see an end to it soon.

I think you hit it on the head -- people want to feel morally superior so they feel telling someone they need help or they are mentally ill validates them especially when all their lil nickname friends come into the thread to support them.

I think most people are hypocrits, they have said at times the reason they jump onto these bandwagons of attacking people and making fun of them etc is because to them its entertainment, so they can't realize that other people come here for entertaining purposes also, for some its to post things that shock people and watch then scurry around resorting to finally attacking the person not the topic, some people come here to be a devil's advocate person and watch people get pissed off at their responses. And some people come here to simply poke a stick at many because they are so thin skinned, self-righteous and full of themselves and somehow think they are SOMEBODY to nicknames who don't want to know who they are. To me, i think when someone gets someone to actually say you need help or you have a mental illness the person they are speaking to has won lol.

Anyway, its sad that people are even trying to justify why people say it because we all know its a concept of insecurity and its a superiority complex and a need for validating themselves -- period. It has always flabbergasted me how people think that the "know" someone based on posts on an anonymous message board by nicknames that they have never personally spoken with. I mean come on folks lol most of the time you don't have a clue if you are talking to a male or a female, you have no clue the motivation of why someone is posting -- could be its simply entertainment for them as it is for many who jump on the bandwagons -- could be that is what they believe and as BDSMers love to say there is no ONE TRUE WAY, etc etc etc.

I think if more people worried about themselves than anonymous posters on a message board, we may find the message boards going back to when there were some damn good discussions and not just this whole bandwagon concept running around.

Yes, people do get irritated on message boards and at times things are said -- however, if you find yourself looking for and seeking out where you can jump on a bandwagon to call someone an idiot or banter with your little social network about someone or claiming someone "needs" help or has a mental illness -- i don't think its that person who needs help, ui think more people need to take a good long hard look at their integrity and their reason for jumping on all these bandwagons to well be negative about people.

To me, if you think somoene needs help -- try looking at yourself before trying to worry about an anonymous nickname on a message board that you don't know at all. But see that would mean they couldn't be validated by their friends cause they wouldn't be going around trying to be morally superior and making fun of people to have their friends support them with their bandwagon banter.

There is no excuse for it or reason for it but simply is what it is -- people needing validation and to feel morally superior because of insecurities they have and are seeking to rectify on an anonymous online message board where hey -- they can feel like a queen or king for a day if they hit the bandwagon banter right.

angel



tigreetsa -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 2:21:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirPumpy

The mentally ill tag is far too often used on people who are just plain old different and I believe this is because some people are not happy unless everyone and everything is in a neat categorised box.



I'm jumping in here in complete agreement. Straightforward social stigmatizing.. We discriminate as this is a normal social process as a way of differentiating and identifying unique characteristics in someone. However when trying to put people into neat little boxes we tend to oversimplify things into 'us'and 'them' ascribing labels based on popular cultural or social beliefs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirPumpy

It is also a control tactic.



Exactly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirPumpy

Take for instance the "Disruptive" child in class, this may be a child who has an enquiring mind or has been encouraged by their parents to ask questions.



Exactly, or a child who is a genius or exceptionally gifted in some way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirPumpy

Or in the 50's if your wife didnt agree with your household policies and became "Difficult" you'd have a chat to your family doctor who would prescribe a little something to calm her down and make her compliant sometimes leading to shock therapy.



In some places in Eastern Europe, for example in the Ukraine, women can be 'sectioned' by their husbands in a secure psychiatric hospital, even for months or years.

The Church employs exactly the same tactic when it comes to homosexuality when it strives to find a direct relationship between homosexuality and paedophilia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirPumpy

Add a constant barrage of accusations regarding your mental health and after a while you'd definitely become a tad twitchy as self doubt and uncertainty set in.



Exactly, because you tend to learn a lot about yourself through your relationships with other people. It can be easy to deceive other people, it's even easier to deceive yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirPumpy

I believe that if you lead a happy life and are productive then you are entitled to some odd behaviour so long as you harm no one including yourself.



Exactly, and especially when you consider that 90% of people suffer from some form of mental illness in their life, even if it's a mild bout of depression.

This is something which makes me laugh on the boards. It's almost like a troupe of cheerleaders at a football game, but come across any thread in which there's problems in a relationship or even the merest hint of some sort of dysfunction and out comes the chorus of (mainly) American posters ...'get therapy', 'see your kink-friendly therapist', 'you need to put yourself in therapy', 'therapy'... 'therapy'.. 'therapy'..

Maybe this is the effects of colonialism, with Brits exporting religious nutters, criminals, social misfits and loonies across the Atlantic but you know after three centuries of therapy, self-help books and 'miracle cures' you can still make out the original demographics even today (just visit the Politics and Religion section).

No I'm not being entirely serious here but the behaviourism which is so prevalent in American culture and society - not to mention American social and cultural norms, or even for that matter the culture of BDSM isn't something shared with the rest of the world or even among many of the posters here.

From this perspective on this side of the Atlantic sometimes the behaviour on these boards is comical, where we have certain American posters objecting to those they deem to be dysfunctional from other countries and yet when it comes to certain dysfunctional US posters not a dicky bird is mentioned.

Here in the UK we don't rush off for therapy at the slightest sign of dysfunction but somehow try to deal with it ourselves and if we're not sure we contact our GP or family doctor who makes the decision over whether we need specialist help or not. I guess this comes from having universal healthcare.

Even SirPumpy's last statement, which I completely agree with, suggests to me that Australians also might not fully subscribe to behaviourism as a reliable indicator of mental illness and certainly from the Australians I know in real time here in London this also seems to be the case.



Rule -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 2:29:02 PM)

Umm, are you okay barelynangel? When was your last full meal?



pahunkboy -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 2:29:41 PM)

One mans junk- is another mans treasure.



crazyml -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 2:44:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

To me, it simply is people who are so concerned about what other people are doing that they try and find validation by "knowing" something about a person that they really have NO CLUE about.


If someone says that they want to chop their own leg off and eat it, you don't need to be an MD or Columbo to opine that they might be bonkers, though - surely?

quote:


[...snipped for brevity...]


I think you hit it on the head -- people want to feel morally superior so they feel telling someone they need help or they are mentally ill validates them especially when all their lil nickname friends come into the thread to support them.


Could you provide an example of this, I'm sure it does happen but as I've not seen it myself I'm not convinced it happens that often?

quote:


I think most people are hypocrits, they have said at times the reason they jump onto these bandwagons of attacking people and making fun of them etc is because to them its entertainment, so they can't realize that other people come here for entertaining purposes also, for some its to post things that shock people and watch then scurry around resorting to finally attacking the person not the topic, some people come here to be a devil's advocate person and watch people get pissed off at their responses. And some people come here to simply poke a stick at many because they are so thin skinned, self-righteous and full of themselves and somehow think they are SOMEBODY to nicknames who don't want to know who they are. To me, i think when someone gets someone to actually say you need help or you have a mental illness the person they are speaking to has won lol. ou


Do you really think that the majority of people are hypocrits?

quote:



Anyway, its sad that people are even trying to justify why people say it because we all know its a concept of insecurity and its a superiority complex and a need for validating themselves -- period.


I'm detecting a little bit of "diagnosis" here ;-)

quote:



(snipped for brevity)

There is no excuse for it or reason for it but simply is what it is -- people needing validation and to feel morally superior because of insecurities they have and are seeking to rectify on an anonymous online message board where hey -- they can feel like a queen or king for a day if they hit the bandwagon banter right.

angel


I think you're making a solid point about "bandwaggoning" (for want of a better word), it does happen here, as it does in all communities. But, and I say this with the sincerest intentions, you've done a lot of psych evaluation in your comments and a cynical person may be wont to ask "Are you doing this because you need validation, and to feel morally superior because of insecurities you have?"

I don't think you are - you're expressing a deal of frustration/anger, but can you see the point I'm trying to make?




pahunkboy -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 2:47:19 PM)

What Angel says makes sense.






crazyml -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 2:49:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I once had a neighbour, more of a friend really, she was a senior psychiatrist, head of department at the local special hospital, this woman was nuts, she even revealed she went into psychiatry to try and work out her own issues, and this is common with those involved in the profession. The trouble was, she never did work out her own issues, they just got worse and to the point where she was self prescribing all sorts of medications and that not hitting the mark, she turned to booze and became a serious alcoholic to boot. It was her alcoholism that finished her career, she was asked to take early retirement. So maybe I knew a bad example of the profession, but the parties I attended were noteworthy, a bunch of psychiatrists and psychiatric nurses doing all sorts of medication, and each one of them to me seemed they just did not have at least one foot in reality. But having seem the psychiatric profession when they party, I just think the gods help us if we ever came under the auspices of that lot.


Ah, good point and well made,.. this does chime with my (very limited experience) of people training as Therapists. I've only met two people who were actively pursuing training to become therapists and in both cases they were absolute nutters and not in a nice way.



Myrryr -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 3:06:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Ah, good point and well made,.. this does chime with my (very limited experience) of people training as Therapists. I've only met two people who were actively pursuing training to become therapists and in both cases they were absolute nutters and not in a nice way.


Only dealt with two therapists myself, one a social worker and the other a licensed psychologist... the former was just rather meh, but the latter was absolutely amazing. Her only goal was and is to help people. Sadly, by talking to the other patients that attend that same ward, the other docs/social workers there aren't that great. It all depends, but it does seem to be a minority that are both in it to help people and are also good at it.



crazyml -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 3:12:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Myrryr

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Ah, good point and well made,.. this does chime with my (very limited experience) of people training as Therapists. I've only met two people who were actively pursuing training to become therapists and in both cases they were absolute nutters and not in a nice way.


Only dealt with two therapists myself, one a social worker and the other a licensed psychologist... the former was just rather meh, but the latter was absolutely amazing. Her only goal was and is to help people. Sadly, by talking to the other patients that attend that same ward, the other docs/social workers there aren't that great. It all depends, but it does seem to be a minority that are both in it to help people and are also good at it.



Thanks for sharing this - my experience was pretty limited!

Thanks for sharing your expe



barelynangel -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 4:11:37 PM)

crazyml, i don't respond to posts that chop up other posts with sentences here and there it kills my eyes and i stopped responding to people a long time ago who do that to my posts as well as I write posts as a whole concept not as separate concepts -- it all goes together so nitpicking sentences to me is ridiculous.

However, i will respond to yours this once. Do it again and i will ignore you.

1. If someone threatens on an anonymous message board under a nickname to cut off their leg and eat it, i usually just shrug -- i may THINK they are nuts for doing so but to tell them or tell them they have a mental illness -- why? The way i see it is if they do it I am sure we will all know cause they will come running in to tell us about it, until then, i don't really take them seriously. I am one of those people who calls people's bluffs. What do you do sit and home biting your nails and trying to make the anonymous nickname talk to you and save him from his own damnation of mutilation because YOU don't agree with it.

Do you really sit around worrying about it? I mean seriously? Wow.


2. The examples are all over this board -- no, i am not going to waste my time itemizing for you what i have seen, my comments were based upon things i have seen on this board and they aren't hard to find. I will say this -- you mention that i have a solid concept in the bandwagoning so that leads me to believe that you know exactly what i am talking about and have seen it and simply are trying to play games.

3. Yes i do, and i also think many people on these boards have a double standard for people they consider friends and those they don't like. And to save you sometime, i have no qualms calling my friends out on shit i don't accept from people who aren't my friends. What people define as their integrity is very important to me, i don't allow much deviation in same.

4 and 5. Okay am i supposed to think something because you want to play games? You are trying to make this ABOUT me, and trying to use some reverse psychology on me? Please don't insult my intelligence or yours. Making this about me shows a desperation that you are too afraid to see the whole of the situation. When you are ready, you will. Until then, you will continue to try and justify things by trying to turn responses back on the individual instead of the topic. Interesting approach but completely inaccurate approach.

You seem to be caught up in some idea that i need to convince you, i really don't. Just so i know -- are you someone i should be concerned about, someone worth my time to convince or are you simply an online anonymous nickname whom i won't remember beyond this thread? You probably won't like what i do deem you.

Finally, I am sitting here incredulous you decided on frustration and more so anger from my posts - i shouldn't be surprised that's the easiest words to use to try and make someone defensive --- grins, do you really expect me to come into the game you are trying to play? Nice try. Again, perhaps you should reaccess your approach and make it about the topic instead of the individual -- unless of course you are waiting for that bandwagon to come ring your bell.

angel






intenze -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 4:23:36 PM)

Fast reply:
Mentally ill?
Maybe.
Who wants to know?[sm=wall.gif][sm=wall.gif]



pahunkboy -> RE: Are you mentally ill ? (5/26/2010 4:30:49 PM)

in olden times- when a messenger brought bad news- he was killed.


Same premise.



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