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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 11:28:52 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		As far as I can tell, a lot of Americans (including most of the right leaning troll element on here) think that anybody who's value differ from their own is a liberal, and anybody who's further to the left than their political leader of choice is a socialist

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 12:08:27 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

As far as I can tell, a lot of Americans (including most of the right leaning troll element on here) think that anybody who's value differ from their own is a liberal, and anybody who's further to the left than their political leader of choice is a socialist



I've heard it said that, " conservatives "think" liberals "feel."
One thing I don't understand though is how can people consider other people who are into making money "conservative?"
I mean Rob Rhiner is a big hollywood "leftie" but I'm sure he lives pretty well just like Donald Trump. Funny, people like them seem to want to tell other people how "to live" but, they can't find their checkbooks to back it up.
People who are into making money are just that. If I were rich I'd be too busy living and having a good time to try to be telling other people how to live their lives.
Then there's the whole "left vs right" thing which is totally counterproductive. If all you're going to do is argue all the time you're not going to get things done.
LadyE, so in England the "conservative" party is really "liberal" by American standards? And vice versa?


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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 12:09:07 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Indeed MH - and isnt the silence deafening? One might have thought that with so many experts here on the awful nature of liberal ideas and socialist ideas we might have enjoyed clarification of their interpretations thereof?

"Question too difficult" I think. Still, at least we know in future that when these terms are thrown about by those happy few who use them to mean "bad" that we might disregard their entire opinion, it being based on nothing.

E

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 12:13:14 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Looks like it, doesn't it?
Popeye, bless him, has at least made an effort, but I don't think anything he says above has much bearing on the post he's quoted.
Still, it is the weekend so I'm sure the forum is less busy than it normally is. Possibly.

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 12:14:36 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
LadyE, so in England the "conservative" party is really "liberal" by American standards? And vice versa?



The Conservatives here run a wide spectrum P, from fascist through to "wet" (near on liberal).

Obama would be on the left wing of the Conservatives here, possibly on the right wing of the Lib Dems, whilst Bush and the last few republican presidents would have been on the right wing of the party.

This is why its so hilariously funny when certain nutjobs here pronounce Obama to be "socialist"; those who see him that way would have a heart attack from apoplexy if they ever came across an actual socialist.

E

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 12:26:00 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I'm reminded of Peter Cook's comment about American politics from Beyond The Fringe:
"The Americans have a two party system, rather like our own. They have a Republican party, who are much the same as our Conservative party, and a Democratic party, who are also much the same as our Conservative party..."
Of course, we now have a Labour party who are much the same as the Conservative party as well.

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 12:32:42 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
LadyE, so in England the "conservative" party is really "liberal" by American standards? And vice versa?



The Conservatives here run a wide spectrum P, from fascist through to "wet" (near on liberal).

Obama would be on the left wing of the Conservatives here, possibly on the right wing of the Lib Dems, whilst Bush and the last few republican presidents would have been on the right wing of the party.

This is why its so hilariously funny when certain nutjobs here pronounce Obama to be "socialist"; those who see him that way would have a heart attack from apoplexy if they ever came across an actual socialist.

E


LadyE, as you can tell I'm not all that familiar with English politics.
In the U.S. "socialist" and to a lessor extent "liberal" usually mean more govt. intervention into people's lives and O.P.M. "other people's money" i.e. the Taxpayer's money as our govt. doesn't have any "money." Every penny they spend is, "the people's money."
Why some people think that more govt. intrusion into people's lives is a "good" thing is beyond me. Those type of people seem to *need* "leaders" to tell them what to do. They're on the "highly anal-retentive" side of the scale. If they met Obama in person and he told them to start picking their noses they'd damn well do it. "The Ministry of Silly Walks."
As a business owner I'm sure you'd welcome much less govt. regulation and intervention into your affairs. "Hands off."


< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 5/29/2010 12:34:16 PM >

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 12:36:35 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Fuck trying to edit posts. It isn't like most of the posters on here are even going to notice that I've used the wrong "whose" in the first place anyway.

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 5/29/2010 12:49:03 PM >

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 12:36:46 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Looks like it, doesn't it?
Popeye, bless him, has at least made an effort, but I don't think anything he says above has much bearing on the post he's quoted.
Still, it is the weekend so I'm sure the forum is less busy than it normally is. Possibly.


Moon, I'm trying to thread through the many differances of the terms here.
"We are two people's separated by one language."

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 12:38:00 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		The fuck do these moderators have the quote button next to the edit one?

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 12:45:53 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

As far as I can tell, a lot of Americans (including most of the right leaning troll element on here) think that anybody whose value differ from their own is a liberal, and anybody who's further to the left than their political leader of choice is a socialist



The Greeks are "socialists." And "socialism" works great, until,..... other people's money runs out.
It's like having a "communal change jug" that people can take money out of as they need it. The jug will *always* become empty *never* full. Seems they always take out more than they put in.
"Hands on."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 5/29/2010 12:47:51 PM >

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 12:51:35 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		The Greeks aren't even close to being socialists, I'm afraid. They'd probably have had more sense to go into the Euro without sorting out the value of the Drachma first if they had been. Socialist countries tend to be a lot better on fiscal responsibility than reactionary ones do, I've noticed. Just look at Cuba and Israel. Hell, it even took you three quarters of a century to bankrupt the soviet union, didn't it?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 1:13:08 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The Greeks aren't even close to being socialists, I'm afraid. They'd probably have had more sense to go into the Euro without sorting out the value of the Drachma first if they had been. Socialist countries tend to be a lot better on fiscal responsibility than reactionary ones do, I've noticed. Just look at Cuba and Israel. Hell, it even took you three quarters of a century to bankrupt the soviet union, didn't it?


Moon, that doesn't change the fact that it's O.P.M.
I agree with you on "reactionary countries." The U.S. needs to learn how to start minding it's own business wether it be militarily or humanitarian.

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 3:52:14 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
As a business owner I'm sure you'd welcome much less govt. regulation and intervention into your affairs. "Hands off."



As it happens, and that should be the normal way to see it of course - but what regulation there is doesnt really affect my business overmuch, because we already did as "best practice" all the things that have since been regulated as obligations.

Yes, we have to show that we comply so there is a bit of paperwork involved more than there was - but by no means is it an oppressive amount even if occasionally annoying when youre a responsible employer and always have been.

Those who complain the loudest I find are those with the mansions and a choice of Mercedes cars to drive and the villa in Spain - and who are absolute arseholes to work for because they honestly believe they have some special right to treat others as slaves.

E

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 4:40:33 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		Popeye-  Moon is an agent for the New World Order.


He LOVES  NWO- he eat and dink and sleeps NWO.   He wears it like white on rice.

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 4:52:13 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
As a business owner I'm sure you'd welcome much less govt. regulation and intervention into your affairs. "Hands off."



As it happens, and that should be the normal way to see it of course - but what regulation there is doesnt really affect my business overmuch, because we already did as "best practice" all the things that have since been regulated as obligations.

Yes, we have to show that we comply so there is a bit of paperwork involved more than there was - but by no means is it an oppressive amount even if occasionally annoying when youre a responsible employer and always have been.

Those who complain the loudest I find are those with the mansions and a choice of Mercedes cars to drive and the villa in Spain - and who are absolute arseholes to work for because they honestly believe they have some special right to treat others as slaves.

E



Lady E, in the U.S. most people want to solve their own problems not have the govt. interfere into every facet and sphere of our lives.
I don't know if you could consider that "conservative" or "liberal" though but "liberals" do seem to want "more govt." which is *never* a good thing!
From this thread there are definately differances in the terms "conservative" and "liberal" between our two countries!

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 4:59:11 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Popeye-  Moon is an agent for the New World Order.


He LOVES  NWO- he eat and dink and sleeps NWO.   He wears it like white on rice.




Moon, is PaHunk's accusation true?
Are you one of those sickos?
You *did* say that Greece isn't socialist.

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 6:35:44 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The fuck do these moderators have the quote button next to the edit one?


Just to piss you off.

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 7:23:24 PM   
Dubbelganger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250




Lady E, in the U.S. most people want to solve their own problems not have the govt. interfere into every facet and sphere of our lives.
I don't know if you could consider that "conservative" or "liberal" though but "liberals" do seem to want "more govt." which is *never* a good thing!
From this thread there are definately differances in the terms "conservative" and "liberal" between our two countries!

And this is a common falsehood parroted by those on the right. I, as a Progressive, don't want "more" govt; I want efficient and effective govt. I'm also enough of a pragmatist to realize that, if one relies on business to regulate itself, it just don't happen.

So-called "conservatives" are absolutely thrilled to have more govt if it benefits them. You ask any older white American (because that is generally the conservative demographic) if they are willing to have their Medicare benefits cut, or their Social Security, or give up part of their Homestead Exemptions to help balance local budgets. A single-payer system here would save Billions, but "conservatives" scream in agony because it's "Socialism" (the result of a very effective propaganda campaign by the AMA back around 1943, IIRC, dredged up and dressed up for the New Millenium.)

And Dog forbid a serious pruning of the biggest welfare program of all, the US MIlitary, occur. "If we don't get that new F-28.5 in the air soon, Abdul is going to jump out of a dumpster at the mall and bomb us all!" It's idiocy. No nation is going to attack the US for the simple reason that no nation has the economic power to attack us. No, not even China. Fear powers the military. Google "Terror Management", LE. The theory has much to commend it.

I'll bet not one person in a hundred can give you a functional definition of Socialism. Well, until they google it, at any rate. And then it will slip away and they'll revert to the moron's definition, i.e., "Anything the Gubbermint does what I don't like is Socialism."

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RE: what's in a name? - 5/29/2010 9:07:41 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Indeed MH - and isnt the silence deafening? One might have thought that with so many experts here on the awful nature of liberal ideas and socialist ideas we might have enjoyed clarification of their interpretations thereof?

"Question too difficult" I think. Still, at least we know in future that when these terms are thrown about by those happy few who use them to mean "bad" that we might disregard their entire opinion, it being based on nothing.

E



Don't read too much into it, LadyE. It seems to be the fate of such threads, or maybe it was your "hand" analogy. I didn't have much better luck with my "fishing" attempt, and that even had a libertarian option.

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