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Arguing With A Sub - 5/28/2010 8:25:27 PM   
MzBehavior


Posts: 5
Joined: 5/27/2010
Status: offline 		Hi. I used to post in the forums as "beej," not that I was particularly important but just for the sake of continuity. I went off meet my local munch, get some solid experience, and learn my role. Hope you don't mind the reinvention.

Recently, I was seriously considering a sub. We'd been dating, and then last weekend, I invited him to a kinky camping trip, the first in a series that I'm taking with a few friends. It was our first play experience together. During the weekend and afterward, we got into two arguments. I enjoy an argument in general, but these sat on that razor edge of being a fight.

In the first argument (during the weekend), we were in a Home Depot picking out rope so that I could tie him up in a dragonfly sleeve, and he made some remarks about my friends with whom we were camping. The remarks were rude and distrustful, even though I'd given him a chance to get to know my friends before the weekend and he'd already spent a whole day with them and had seemed to enjoy himself. Basically, I had the sense that he'd been putting on a face/faking it for my friends. I told him that if he wasn't happy, he should leave, but he certainly could not stay under duress. He back tracked pretty fast from everything that he'd said and claimed that maybe it was just culture shock. We live in Central Alabama, and we're both from metropolitan areas, so that was reasonable. I let it slide since he said that he was having a good time and wanted to continue. And honestly, the rest of the weekend was lovely.

In the second fight (a few days after the weekend), I was asking about his advanced play preferences and limits since I was planning to stage an interrogation for our next camping trip. I wanted to know what extreme things he liked and didn't and I asked him to make a list. Instead of telling me that, he kind of pussy-footed into comments about things that his previous Dommes had done, things that I specifically had not done over the weekend. Basically his previous Dommes were sensualists and I'm a sadist. I think he was trying to tell me what he would like to do, but it was like a delayed reaction or a list of grievances that he'd bottled up instead of saying them in the moment last weekend. Mind you, over the weekend, there was plenty of down time/non-play time in which I asked if he were having a good time, if he'd been okay with such and so, etc. Also, every activity had been discussed beforehand. Also, one of my friends was a mentor/advanced player who was teaching us safe and consensual technique, and she spent a lot of time talking to him and checking in with him as well, independently of me. At one point, he went off to have a watergun fight with her because he liked her so much. I also did arts and crafts, something he enjoys that I couldn't give a flying fuck about, so that it would be a welcoming weekend as it was our first play experience. So I feel comfortable assuming that he had every opportunity, and that he felt comfortable enough, to speak his mind before to myself or someone else.

After the second argument, I cut him loose. I believe that arguing such as we were doing is a sign that something has gone wrong, and even if it isn't anyone's fault, it cannot continue. If I can't control my temper, we cannot go on. Now I've heard back from him, apologies, etc. He's backtracking from his statements like he did the first time. I told him that I would not entertain any conversation for fear of more volatile arguing, but he could email me if he wanted to wrap things up on a good note.

I passed my decision by a friend, and she thinks that I'm being too high handed. Specifically she said that arguing was a relationship matter but that he'd been a perfect sub. She says that he's allowed to argue with me, as my boyfriend, about whatever he likes, but because he's my sub, of course he wouldn't argue with me in the moment. Basically, she thinks that his delayed reactions are appropriate behavior from a loyal sub because over the weekend, he was in my environment and with my friends as my submissive.

I disagree because as I said, during the weekend, there were times when we were specifically "on"/in play, and times when we were specifically "off"/just boyfriend and girlfriend. There were late night conversations that had nothing to do with BDSM, and no one was around then, and he could have discussed any of his concerns with me while I might have been able to do something about them or make adjustments. Instead, he waited until he felt emotionally pressed, and I think that's why the arguments popped up in such an unexpected fashion, if you see what I mean. Because I've been talking to him in this same fashion all along. I can only assume that this behavioral change is because before when we were only dating, things were egalitarian, and now that he's been my sub and the scales tipped, he's splitting his behavior between two modes, sub and boyfriend.

Any insight would be much appreciated. I feel like I made some kind of grievous tactical error that I don't want to repeat with another solid prospect. Thanks.

Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/28/2010 8:52:10 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		Perhaps he waited until he'd worked things out in his head, or waited until he felt emotionally safe. You didn't mention how long the two of you have known each other, or how long the M/s dynamic has been involved but I get the impression that for the latter at least it has been a fairly short time.

If he is relatively inexperienced then having a full weekend of play surrounded by others can be very intense, sometimes it can wind up being something that causes some emotional upheaval that can take time to process.

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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/28/2010 8:53:17 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Welcome back!

Okay, you told him what you didn't like.  How should he have approached differences of opinion with you?


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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/28/2010 9:04:14 PM   
GraciousLady


Posts: 529
Joined: 7/7/2009
Status: offline 		Perhaps the two of you have a hard time communicating? It seems you are more aggrevated by the way he brings things up than what he is bringing up.

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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/28/2010 9:14:28 PM   
MzBehavior


Posts: 5
Joined: 5/27/2010
Status: offline 		I understand that it takes time to process things, but this was not an intense experience. I'm a novice and so is he, which is why I had a mentor there. And since we had dated (less than a month, so to a friendly/comfy but not highly emotional level), he was perfectly comfortable expressing himself to me before when we were just talking. And obviously he was quite comfortable yelling.

So in answer to your question, Steven (Hi!), I felt like he should have expressed his concerns when I asked what they were, which I did often. During the weekend, I asked him. I rented the cabin and it was our personal space. We were the only people staying in it, and he had a whole floor to himself. If there were too many friends visiting, I could have changed our privacy level, or I could have done something had he said something to me at the time. What bothers me is that he waited until it had eaten at him, and then it turned into an argument. Or again in the second argument, when I specifically asked, "What do you like and what don't you like?" I feel like he should have said as much as opposed to being vague. Because the argument started when he waxed on and on about what his previous Dommes had done (mostly professionals, I might add), and I kept redirecting him to my question: "Make me a list of what you like and don't like." That's where the tension came in, if you see what I mean. I literally couldn't get him to start a sentence with, "I like" such and so, or "I don't like" such and so. He gave me these scenarios from his old Dommes, and I asked, "Is that something that you want to try?" and I couldn't get a straight answer.

I'm notoriously insensitive to emotional cues, so that's why I'm asking if I'm treading on appropriate behavior from him. Maybe, as you said Camille, he waited until he felt safe. I just don't understand why he would have acted happy and endured a weekend if he didn't feel safe and emotionally comfortable while he was there. I dunno.

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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/28/2010 9:17:25 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Passive aggression, everyone's favourite kind! :/
If you want to give this guy another spin, sit him down and tell him that you're not happy with the jello spine routine. He doesn't get to be all fake-happy and take it back later. Honesty or nothing. Be blunt. Sure, he might have processing issues or whatever, but it sounds like he is processing by being pissed at you.

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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/28/2010 9:18:28 PM   
MzBehavior


Posts: 5
Joined: 5/27/2010
Status: offline 		GraciousLady, exactly. That's why I feel that we are not a good fit. We lose each other in translation, and so I think we are not meant to be. 'Course I value the opinion of my friend who has met him and thoroughly disagrees with me. She's thinks he's exactly right for me, lol.

(in reply to MzBehavior)
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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/28/2010 9:26:35 PM   
MzBehavior


Posts: 5
Joined: 5/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Sure, he might have processing issues or whatever, but it sounds like he is processing by being pissed at you.


Word. That's my opinion, and that's why I don't think I should start up again with him. He'd be better off with someone less blunt, I think. Not a bad guy by any means, but I can't coax information out of a man, and he certainly gave no indication of having a jello spine before this happened. I don't want to be disrespectful of the fact that he was trying to be a good sub for me, but I'm also trying to be a good leader, and withholding information isn't going to help either of us. After the fact, I can't fix anything.

I almost wonder if he was wanting me to soothe his disappointments, because he was kind of into being petted? But that's a silly way to extract a petting, isn't it?

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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/28/2010 9:30:19 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Yepper. Great for someone ELSE.

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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/28/2010 9:39:56 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior

I understand that it takes time to process things, but this was not an intense experience. I'm a novice and so is he, which is why I had a mentor there. And since we had dated (less than a month, so to a friendly/comfy but not highly emotional level), he was perfectly comfortable expressing himself to me before when we were just talking. And obviously he was quite comfortable yelling.

So in answer to your question, Steven (Hi!), I felt like he should have expressed his concerns when I asked what they were, which I did often. During the weekend, I asked him. I rented the cabin and it was our personal space. We were the only people staying in it, and he had a whole floor to himself. If there were too many friends visiting, I could have changed our privacy level, or I could have done something had he said something to me at the time. What bothers me is that he waited until it had eaten at him, and then it turned into an argument. Or again in the second argument, when I specifically asked, "What do you like and what don't you like?" I feel like he should have said as much as opposed to being vague. Because the argument started when he waxed on and on about what his previous Dommes had done (mostly professionals, I might add), and I kept redirecting him to my question: "Make me a list of what you like and don't like." That's where the tension came in, if you see what I mean. I literally couldn't get him to start a sentence with, "I like" such and so, or "I don't like" such and so. He gave me these scenarios from his old Dommes, and I asked, "Is that something that you want to try?" and I couldn't get a straight answer.

I'm notoriously insensitive to emotional cues, so that's why I'm asking if I'm treading on appropriate behavior from him. Maybe, as you said Camille, he waited until he felt safe. I just don't understand why he would have acted happy and endured a weekend if he didn't feel safe and emotionally comfortable while he was there. I dunno.


Honestly, you can't reasonably assess whether it was an "intense" experience for him or not. It wasn't for you, and that's fine, but it might have been for him.

Many people on a weekend away are going to try to make the best of things during that time and not say anything, feeling that it isn't the appropriate time, you asking or not. Just because he is the sub and you are the domme, this is a fairly new relationship and you are not in the position to dictate how long he gets to process things. That is unreasonable.

All that aside, it sounds like he may have some difficulty verbalizing the answers to your questions and was giving examples as a means of trying to let you know. It also sounds as if part of your "unhappiness" with that was the feeling of being "compared" to these past dommes. Fair enough, most people don't liked to be compared to past partners, whether those "exes" were pros or not.

A friend who knows you well thinks he is a good match for you. That does say something, if the friend really does know you well. Perhaps you need to backtrack a bit and instead of discussing what type of play date you are going to have, there should be a conversation regarding how each of you are accustomed to communicating with your partner. Perhaps you can find a middle ground between your desire for a "laundry lists" of likes/desires/needs/wants and his more subtle approach. Remember for some people it can be difficult to verbalize such things in a very direct manner.

All in all, it hasn't been very long since you started the relationship, even less time since introducing the dynamic. You admit you are both novices on top of that, so remember you can't really dictate his learning curve. If aside from the incidents you describe you really like this guy, I would say have a conversation about how each of you communicate and see if there is a middle ground. If you aren't sure if you like him that much, then go ahead and cut him loose, it will be better for both of you to do that.

(in reply to MzBehavior)
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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/28/2010 10:02:20 PM   
ricken


Posts: 261
Joined: 1/11/2010
Status: offline 		I got to agree with LadyHibiscus and DarkSteven

My girlfriend, that is also my sub, used to do the same thing. Wait for things to build up in her head, and then let them out in a fit of anger. I would talk to her about our play time whats good whats not, etc....
Sexually we seem to talk about limits, how much pain she can take, and playtime just great.
But when it comes to asking my girlfriend are you OK with this, or that, and get a "yeaahhh...."
I couldn't figure out how someone can talk about sex so easy, yet didn't talk about her emotions.
I sort of caught on, are playtime is a "scheduled time" usually, I tell her the day before I feel like playing...she gets to be spontanious by being "bratty"thats my signal to correct her.
Now I make an appointment to talk about some of the important issues in our relationship, if I see she has something on her mind. It seems to work, but I got stay on top of it. Making the appointment gives her time to think about what she needs to get out. I usually just tell her a couple of hours ahead we should talk.
It seems when she was growing up the "silent treatment" was a way of dealing with issues in her family. We did "shout at the top of your loungs" thing. It took me a long time to learn that wasn't a good way to get your ideas across.

You have only been together a month, you both have to work out how you are going to comminucate.

I wish you the best

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/29/2010 11:04:14 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Our opinion:

Your first play was scheduled 1) on a secluded trip, 2) in an environment unfamiliar to him and 3) firmly in your emotional territory. If this were a female submissive with a male dominant, most people would be saying, "Wait, he wants to take you where, under what circumstances and do what? Are you crazy?"

THEN, your second trip (implying your second play session), you were going to do extreme interrogation play, in the same set of circumstances?

These things, again in Our opinion, aren't positive. He was most likely overwhelmed but not versed in figuring out his emotions and expressing them. He was probably so enthralled by playing that he let a lot of things slide the first time, but the second time was just too off for him to feel safe and so he was acting out.

So, there are two things to fix: your approach to offering a safe place in order to build trust and having a clear way for grievances to be aired. Trust is paramount as is communication.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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BDSM How-To Books

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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/29/2010 11:33:03 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		I find that I rarely argue with people I'm in relationships with. Does that mean we never fight? No. Do I repress stuff? No and in relationships, I work with my partner so that he doesn't either. I find the worst explosions are the ones that come after repressing things. And this is not just something that s-types do. I knew the most passive-aggressive Dom ever!

So when I personally hear that you had 2 arguments back to back I tend to think mismatch. But then, I'm basing this on my experience which might not be the norm for you. You did say you liked a good argument. Is it possible that you might have stirred stuff up to test the dynamic? Just thoughts.

- LA

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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/29/2010 11:40:10 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'm a little hung up on your term about arguing.  I'm trying to see past that so I can give you some constructive advice.

I do think some mistakes were made here, and they weren't only by one party.  One of My re-direct questions for you is specifically about the culture shock that you mentioned.  I'm not especially sure if it's so much a case of from city to country.  I do see a lot of possibility of what might be different leaping from what he was used to in play, rather than the situation that he found himself.  Even before going, there was a discussion regarding the people who's company the two of you would be keeping.  If he felt that way, play might not have been a good idea under the circumstances.  Some people look at public play in a number of ways.  Around trusted friends one thing.  Strangers that you may not especially like or feel comfortable around, something entirely different.  (You get lucky when you find those who don't give a damn and will play at big clubs where they've never met anyone, but I don't think that's the type of person you're dealing with here.)

After the camping weekend was over, when was your first check in to discuss the play you had engaged in during your trip?  People don't always make sure they have given the other person a bit of time to process so they are more in touch with their reactions after they have processed the sensations.  It's a good time to connect with the feelings of what the experiences were, rather than  stepping up the pace to the next.  This may have been where some of the communication could have flowed a little more easily.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of public play, but interrogation play in public in the first few scenes isn't something that I partake in.  I prefer playing with someone several times and most likely doing a lighter, private interrogation scene first before throwing them into the deep end of the pool.  (My scenes of this type may not be similar to yours.)  Jumping ahead a little too quickly for Me, but that's just My opinion.

What also jumped out at Me was are you sure that the two of you have the same desires in your styles of play?  You specifically mentioned that his past experiences were more sensation oriented, whereas you are more sadistic.  Make sure you are on the same page.

If you want to give this person another shot, get the ground rules put in place.  Communication will happen.  Make sure you require healthy exchange.  No festering, no passive-aggressive stuff. 

Good luck.  I wish you the best and it's nice to see you back.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/29/2010 12:14:37 PM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I do see a lot of possibility of what might be different leaping from what he was used to in play, rather than the situation that he found himself.


This. Op, you said that his previous relationships had been with a different type of dynamic, its got to be fairly difficult to adjust. Also if you feel under a pressure wit a shift it can be hard to know how to express yourself, also as a submissive the desire to please can mean on occasion you do suppress. In my last relationship I exploded a few times, not instantly but more because despite asking how I was it seemed rather often that I wasn't being heard.

I don't know the specifics of your relationship and only you can judge whether you were being too hard or not, as has been mentioned communication is always key but communication is often a lot more than just asking

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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/29/2010 1:51:12 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Good points about the setting. You are right about the gender differences relating to the scene as a kind or parallel example of reasonableness.

-----

As for the OP:

Fighting to me is not a bad sign per say, but how one fights and what one does after a fight are very significant. Its always good to know a relationship can have fights, withstand them, and move on and develop.

What one fights about:

(1) disagreements;
(2) differences of opinion;
(3) hurt feelings

-- all valid territories for a fight.

(4) Grumpy aggressiveness;
(5) over personalization of differences;
(6) rigidity and closed mindedness;
(7) traps;
(8) incompatible temperaments or outlooks:

-- bad territories for a fight.

How one fights:

(1) flying off in a rage;
(2) bringing up the past out of the blue;
(3) not listening;
(4) no regard for a constructive resolution of a problem or differences

--- Very Bad

(5) raising concerns after you have cooled down;
(6) letting small stuff go;
(7) using the past for context instead of tit for tat;
(8) explaining the details of "why" one is upset;
(9) leaving your partner an out by either apologizing, modifying behavior, and doing things differently

--- This is all good.

-----

If I were the guy in the situation you describe, I think I would keep my problems to myself -- but before going on the first camping trip -- I would simply communicate my concerns. After that, I would let things play out to see how they went -- in other words I would try to be game. I would avoid making things "worse" before we put the boat in the water, and I would save objections until after we'd crossed the river, so to speak.

I would want to maximize our chances of having a positive experience, even if I had reservations -- and after the first go-around -- conduct a proper postmortem.



< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/29/2010 1:59:56 PM >

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
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RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/29/2010 9:43:12 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior
So I feel comfortable assuming that he had every opportunity, and that he felt comfortable enough, to speak his mind before to myself or someone else.


It is possible this assumption does not capture how he felt.

quote:

In the first argument (during the weekend), we were in a Home Depot picking out rope so that I could tie him up in a dragonfly sleeve, and he made some remarks about my friends with whom we were camping. The remarks were rude and distrustful, even though I'd given him a chance to get to know my friends before the weekend and he'd already spent a whole day with them and had seemed to enjoy himself. Basically, I had the sense that he'd been putting on a face/faking it for my friends. I told him that if he wasn't happy, he should leave, but he certainly could not stay under duress. He back tracked pretty fast from everything that he'd said and claimed that maybe it was just culture shock. We live in Central Alabama, and we're both from metropolitan areas, so that was reasonable. I let it slide since he said that he was having a good time and wanted to continue. And honestly, the rest of the weekend was lovely.


It is possible he was being unreasonable. Or it is possible he was trying to get along with your friends (almost like how one might try to tolerate inlaws for the sake of a relationship) but did not click with them, and was trying to convey this sentiment. I cannot know whether he was being fake or whether he was trying hard to get along with your friends. I cannot know what wording he used to convey how he felt, and whether more tactful and respectful words could have been used.

In any case, to tell him to leave if he wasn't happy (versus uncovering what was going on) could have left him reluctant to share further or share similar feelings again. I sense perhaps he was not comfortable speaking openly with you, which could have come partially from him, and partially from how you might have responded when he did try to speak openly in the past.

quote:

In the second fight (a few days after the weekend), I was asking about his advanced play preferences and limits since I was planning to stage an interrogation for our next camping trip. I wanted to know what extreme things he liked and didn't and I asked him to make a list. Instead of telling me that, he kind of pussy-footed into comments about things that his previous Dommes had done, things that I specifically had not done over the weekend. Basically his previous Dommes were sensualists and I'm a sadist. I think he was trying to tell me what he would like to do, but it was like a delayed reaction or a list of grievances that he'd bottled up instead of saying them in the moment last weekend. Mind you, over the weekend, there was plenty of down time/non-play time in which I asked if he were having a good time, if he'd been okay with such and so, etc. Also, every activity had been discussed beforehand. Also, one of my friends was a mentor/advanced player who was teaching us safe and consensual technique, and she spent a lot of time talking to him and checking in with him as well, independently of me. At one point, he went off to have a watergun fight with her because he liked her so much. I also did arts and crafts, something he enjoys that I couldn't give a flying fuck about, so that it would be a welcoming weekend as it was our first play experience.


Some subs, including myself, can feel reluctant to say what they want done to them because (1) they do not wish to come across as demanding or the do-me subs or (2) because it feels counter to the dynamic.

I cannot know whether or not he likes extreme things and whether the direction you were suggesting fell outside his comfort zones or, at least, was too much too soon. I cannot know how he felt about those extreme activities in front of others. Unrelated to the discomfort with extreme activities or not, I sense he was trying to suggest other activities to try. Why did he not say so the weekend before? Perhaps he was reluctant for the two reasons I list at the beginning of this paragraph. Perhaps he was being patient (as I would be inclined to do). Perhaps he was reluctant because he was afraid and unsure about how you might respond, especially given the exchange at Home Depot.

To wait until a later time to bring up disharmony happens even without the pressure of a D/s dynamic. Some people are comfortable with disharmony, some feel very uncomfortable about it. A people pleaser, a trait common amongst subs, is more likely to avoid disharmony. It could be he did not have the communication skills to raise a point of conflict. Furthermore, even if one is comfortable to bring up disharmony, some people avoid any potential argument or disharmony at social events (under the thought that now is not the time and place). I sense that in general, even if you were not at a social event, he was not comfortable to bring up disharmony or speak his mind with you.

All that said, you have a valid point. Good communication techniques suggest bringing up issues sooner rather than later so as to avoid the type of feeling you now have--that he had been holding this negativity all this time.

Often incomplete communication occurs because we tend to ask questions with binary answers whereas few things in life are binary. How much is one enjoying an event is not a binary matter, whereas asking one if they are enjoying the event tends to invite a binary answer. Let us suppose that on a scale of 1-10 (10 being highest), he was at a 5. He is likely to respond with a yes even though he was not fully enjoying the event (because he was enjoying it at some level).

Even if he was not enjoying the event, it is imaginable that one will say so for sake of the relationship (similar to how a spouse might say to be enjoying a visit to inlaws even if not fully enjoying the visit). If he was afraid to speak his mind for sake of how you might respond (that he should then leave), it would make such a possibility even greater.

quote:

I feel like I made some kind of grievous tactical error that I don't want to repeat with another solid prospect.


I do not know whether he deserves the benefit of doubt your friend and I have extended to him. In any case, I think one point you might take away from this experience is that to encourage open communication it would help make one feel they can speak their mind without being punished for it. If you feel that it would be difficult for you to not express your displeasure if you do not like the information, perhaps it can be conveyed to you via a journal where you have time to cool down and reflect if it immediately upsets you or discuss the matter with a friend first.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 5/29/2010 10:24:18 PM >

(in reply to MzBehavior)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/30/2010 10:26:15 AM   
MzBehavior


Posts: 5
Joined: 5/27/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks everyone. A couple of people made similar points, so I'd like to ask a question topically instead of by person, if you don't mind.

Regarding his comfort level with public play: It seems clear that he couldn't quite get comfortable with it, and perhaps I was asking for him to adjust to too much. But the thing is, he knew what the circumstances would be, and he agreed. He even said that he fantasized about being in service to/humiliated by more than one woman at once. In practice, it would seem that fantasy wasn't the same as reality, and I have no grievance with him wanting to change his mind or taking a step back.

But I'm not a mind reader, and again, I can't fix what he doesn't mention in the moment. With a man in a more egalitarian relationship, I could expect him to speak up, but we're talking about a sub and as many of you have said, submissives tend to be people pleasers. Maybe he put being a good sub over his personal grievances. I guess what I'm asking is, am I supposed to be thinking around all of these boxes and anticipating even how me might respond to something? In your opinion, is that a part of my responsibility for him and for the outcome of the situation? Because looking back on it, I think I argued with him as I would argue with a man in an egalitarian relationship. I don't think I argued with him as my sub, if you see what I'm saying, and perhaps that was a mistake on my part.

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/30/2010 10:53:17 AM   
Toppingfrmbottom


Posts: 6528
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		  I would not recommend taking a notice to an  event for their first experinece in play, or play with you for the first time. Play parties and stuff can be quite overwhealming and there's a lot going on, a lot to take in and to process. Even if your play is rather tame, there's still the play of every one else going on, and that can be very loud and intimidating.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBehavior

I understand that it takes time to process things, but this was not an intense experience. I'm a novice and so is he, which is why I had a mentor there.

(in reply to MzBehavior)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Arguing With A Sub - 5/30/2010 11:32:56 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		OK.  Now you're touching on why I was hung up with the arguing as the concept of the post.  I am willing to discuss, debate, converse, and even disagree during communication with My sub.  I am not willing to argue.  If a sub can't bring Me anything new during a discussion, at some point, it's time to make the final decision. 

To address your second paragraph, I think there is a huge difference between a person telling you about a fantasy and that same person being ready to experience that fantasy.  Something sounding hot isn't the same thing.  There's a lot to be said for starting slow and working your way up.  (Not to mention you get to have fun all along the way.  )  Even with just straight up S/m, if I'm playing with someone who has never bottomed before (not just not to Me, I mean ever), I'm going to take the cautious road, rather than go balls to the wall, beating them enough that they can't sit for two weeks because of the bruising.

I agree with you that you are not a mind reader.  None of us are.  This is why I favor those who are more at ease with open and honest communication.  I enjoy asking questions, but I don't want to feel like I am pulling teeth.  Even in play only situations, I feel that if both parties are going to get what they want, they have to be forthright about the feelings they associate with the scenes they experience and what they would hope to experience.  I want to tap into that and use it to My advantage.  Part of developing that is keeping the communication positive and exploring those areas. 

I might be in the minority here, but especially in the beginning of a play understanding, it's My opinion that this should be fun.  There's always time later to get into those areas where the bottom has established enough trust in your understanding to go into the deeper kinds of scenes that involve the more intense stuff.  Build your foundation first.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MzBehavior)
Profile   Post #: 20
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