Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: feeling submissive


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Submissive >> RE: feeling submissive Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 6:26:33 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		porcelaine, in my last two relationships (M/s for one year and D/s for 3 years), I specifically explored with them how I reacted to an order I was uncomfortable with, to pain that was beyond what I could enjoy from a masochistic perspective, and tasks that were arbitrary or unsexy before making a commitment and agreeing to a power exchange dynamic. I really needed that sense of yielding to his will and his authority, to feel upset, even distraught if I could not comply with his wishes, or at even the thought of disobeying, to feel like he could as easily command my body as his own.

Jeff (leadership), I had to regretfully turn down a couple of potential partners, even though they seemed reasonably compatible in kink and vanilla aspects, because they needed a power exchange dynamic but had an incompatible philosophy/view of D/s. Someone who feels that masochism/bottoming or compliance/obedience is the same thing as submission would most likely not be a good fit for me. If I happened to react submissively toward him, then we might attempt to make it work, but if not, I would feel like I was founding our relationship on a lie by agreeing to be his submissive.

I feel similarly about dominance, and refused a couple of male submissives who wanted to call me their Domme or have me refer to them as my slave in exchange for their doing housework or other acts of service, before we'd even met or had an opportunity to discover whether or not we had any D/s chemistry.

(in reply to eibhlinauvert)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 6:55:43 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Being compliant doesn't make me submissive if you've never encroached on my comfort zone. And it doesn't mean you're asking the ridiculous either. But there is a noticeable yielding where his directive takes precedence over what I might prefer in a given situation. I am neither the first slave to think this way (and I've conversed with quite a few) and I'm positive I won't be the last.

OK, I've written, erased, and re-written this response about 2 dozen times now (literally). I give up and I'll leave it at this.

You have every right to experience submission and to be made submissive however it is that floats your boat. You do not, however, have the right to define that experience for Carol and I. I can absolutely tell you that the entire conceptual framework your using to make your statement would be utterly foreign to Carol (and me, for that matter). That might well make her not particularly submissive and me not particularly dominant by your standards. But unless you are prepared to propose your standards as THE standards, then we just have to leave it at that. I think I can hazard a guess though that this is why I prefer the subs who don't feel their submission.

We would very probably get to the bottom of this conversation over a cup of coffee face to face. But through the medium of a discussion board I sincerely doubt that actual understanding is likely.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 7:09:11 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		OK, somehow that first effort didn't go into the bit bucket so deleting this one.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 6/1/2010 7:10:16 PM >

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 7:13:41 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Oh, I agree that I don't have any desire whatsoever to change your or Carol's approach to submission or power exchange. If anything, I intended it as agreement with you, that it is important for anyone and their potential partner to be compatible in their perspectives on power exchange if they need or want it in their relationship. Probably you and I wouldn't be compatible, but that doesn't mean I feel you are wrong, or should change your mind, or anything of the sort, and I don't intend it as a slight on your dominance or your views. I've just had a couple of very awkward experiences in the past with someone who did equate bottoming with submission, and it made me hyperaware of the need for communication in this area with anyone before I play with or seriously date them. My former Master and I had somewhat different views on the difference between a submissive and a slave, for example, but it was only important to me that I could comply with *his* definition of a slave, and that I did actually feel a power exchange with him. A potential partner wouldn't need to have identical views on power exchange by any means, but I feel that if they were in direct opposition, it would make more sense to find someone who I already had common ground with in that area.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 7:16:25 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
Jeff (leadership), I had to regretfully turn down a couple of potential partners, even though they seemed reasonably compatible in kink and vanilla aspects, because they needed a power exchange dynamic but had an incompatible philosophy/view of D/s. Someone who feels that masochism/bottoming or compliance/obedience is the same thing as submission would most likely not be a good fit for me. If I happened to react submissively toward him, then we might attempt to make it work, but if not, I would feel like I was founding our relationship on a lie by agreeing to be his submissive.
And let me stand right up and applaud that. You, however are not speaking about what SUBMISSION is, you are speaking about what works for you.... which is what I was doing... and Raven. I flagged porcelaine because she used absolutes and because I respect her enough to actually call her on it. Most people who write such things I simply ignore.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 7:20:06 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I generally try to avoid absolutes, but I haven't succeeded in it absolutely. Most of the time, I use qualifiers and try to explain that it is what works for me, rather than what I expect of other people, but sometimes I am tired or think that that was implied or clear from the context. I have no right whatsoever to tell you what submission should be, but I feel it's important to be on the same page with any potential partner who I've met and am exploring possibilities with.

I had the impression that porcelaine was agreeing with me that that's how submission works for her as well, rather than her seeking to impose it on anyone else. Disclaimers (whether the "this is a fast reply" or "this is just how it works for me/IMHO/etc.") can easily get a little clumsy and long, when someone only wants to say a sentence or two. In general, I'd hope that people would assume that a response is a fast reply unless I quote them or use their screenname or some such, and that I am speaking for the way things work for me in my relationships rather than attempting to impose my philosophy on everyone, unless I explicitly state otherwise.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 6/1/2010 7:49:36 PM >

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 7:26:35 PM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline 		Im one of those whose bell has to be rung to be submissive. They need to  be commanding and quite alpha and I need to have an awakening of my submissiveness through thier actions and charge and my eagerness to please them.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 7:33:04 PM   
UniqueRaven


Posts: 1237
Joined: 9/30/2009
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
Jeff (leadership), I had to regretfully turn down a couple of potential partners, even though they seemed reasonably compatible in kink and vanilla aspects, because they needed a power exchange dynamic but had an incompatible philosophy/view of D/s. Someone who feels that masochism/bottoming or compliance/obedience is the same thing as submission would most likely not be a good fit for me. If I happened to react submissively toward him, then we might attempt to make it work, but if not, I would feel like I was founding our relationship on a lie by agreeing to be his submissive.
And let me stand right up and applaud that. You, however are not speaking about what SUBMISSION is, you are speaking about what works for you.... which is what I was doing... and Raven. I flagged porcelaine because she used absolutes and because I respect her enough to actually call her on it. Most people who write such things I simply ignore.


Thank you, and i'm very sunburned and tired right now so my posts are suffering as a result tonight. 

i've thought a few times about attempting to define "submission" as an exercise, and every time i simply stop - because i know, i know in my heart and mind that submission is an absolutely subjective state dependent upon the person, and the people, and the relationship, involved.

i do know that there are times when i do simply comply - and it is simple action for me.  i'm not sure if that's actually submission for me though.  But, as i've mentioned on this thread, there are times when i simply don't overthink submission by choice, and simply do as i'm told - and let the submissive feelings sort themselves out.  And it works for me.  So is that compliance?  Yes, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum.  

However, i will say that it is very, very easy for me to comply with any command, owned or not - one reason i don't attend play parties unowned is because really, if a random Dom wanted to play with me for the night, and approached me as such, i would comply - even though inside i would be totally upset with myself.  It is that deep seated "need to please" that i have - and i comply because i want to please.  So is that submission?  i'm not sure.

Bottom line for me though, is that i know that whatever i am feeling, or acting, or expressing - whether compliance, or submission - is that it comes from a deep, deep internal motivation that is strongly rooted in what i am.  One of the reasons i refer to myself as an "unowned slave" vs. a submissive (a rule that some hold that you can't be a slave unless you're owned) is because i am a slave - it is my identity, and it is what i am - whether i'm owned or not. 

It's the difference between outward and inward discipline directed as an action towards a goal - i am not slave because of the consequences of failure, i am slave because it is what i am.  Slave is simply not just an outward existence for me of simple action - it is action manifested by that deep inward state that i have.

i hope this makes sense, and i'm appreciating the discussion.  If this winds up in a new thread, i'll be happy to submit (lol) more. 

< Message edited by UniqueRaven -- 6/1/2010 7:38:19 PM >

_____________________________

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?" ~Snoopy (Charles Schultz)

My blog is at http://takinghishand.wordpress.com

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 7:44:23 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		It makes perfect sense to me! Personally, I'm very much a people-pleaser, and enjoy doing things to be useful or make someone's life easier. I frequently ask if there's anything I can do to help if I am at a friend's home, or at an event, and I'm generally compliant with reasonable requests. If someone phrases a command rudely (when they are not someone I have acknowledged as being in authority over me) or asks something unreasonable and then gets pushy, I tend to do my best impression of a mule and dig my heels in. If someone attempts to come across as very dominant when I don't know him yet, or persists after being turned down if they ask to play with me, I've become pretty snarky on occasion. I don't feel that I am a slave or submissive in personality or identity, only with respect to a specific person. I'm just usually compliant, helpful, and a people-pleaser, especially with people I care about. I don't personally consider that to be linked to D/s for me - if I am in a D/s relationship, it involves all that and more, but I'm not submissive to my yoga teacher even when she controls my breathing.

(in reply to UniqueRaven)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 7:44:28 PM   
UniqueRaven


Posts: 1237
Joined: 9/30/2009
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		p.s. Jeff, i didn't read porcelaine as speaking in "absolutes" - for me her post read as what works, and she feels, for her, and others that she knows. 

_____________________________

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?" ~Snoopy (Charles Schultz)

My blog is at http://takinghishand.wordpress.com

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 8:01:11 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		leadership527,

quote:

You have every right to experience submission and to be made submissive however it is that floats your boat. You do not, however, have the right to define that experience for Carol and I.


No one is attempting to define your dynamic. I referenced myself specifically in your response. But there is something you keep forgetting in all of this. Carol was your wife long before she ever became your slave. Surely you understand that plays a huge part in the receptiveness you receive. She's surrendering to a man that has proven his mettle over time. Not establishing a relationship and dynamic while discovering these things.

I don't understand why this is even a question at all. It can never be the same. You have a noticeable benefit that the majority of us lack. She trusts you and knows you won't let her down. She has a bevy of experiences to draw upon to validate that. So many things that offset the issues we confront on the kneel. You've proven yourself Jeff. Hands down. It's clear you were a good partner and have brought the same proficiency into your exchange.

My risks are different. My experiences will be different. And maybe my responses would be markedly different if I had the same benefits she does. But I don't. And in all truth that's the perspective most are dealing with when we're entering our relationships. 

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 8:03:29 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven
i've thought a few times about attempting to define "submission" as an exercise, and every time i simply stop - because i know, i know in my heart and mind that submission is an absolutely subjective state dependent upon the person, and the people, and the relationship, involved.

Ain't that the truth? *laughs*

I can crisply define what it means to submit in a single act. I can extrapolate out what a submissive personality would be. But submissive as a relationship orientation and the state of "submission" are both concepts which are deeply rooted in personal headspace. Trying to define what "submission" means is like trying to define "enlightenment".

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to UniqueRaven)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 8:14:24 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		Andalusite,

quote:

I really needed that sense of yielding to his will and his authority, to feel upset, even distraught if I could not comply with his wishes, or at even the thought of disobeying, to feel like he could as easily command my body as his own.


I know when I have moved away from that place. I also know when that person fails to connect with me in that manner. It's difficult for me to conceptualize surrendering to someone that has never compelled me to yield in the first place. But that's my bias.

quote:

I had the impression that porcelaine was agreeing with me that that's how submission works for her as well, rather than her seeking to impose it on anyone else.


I was.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 8:30:29 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
No one is attempting to define your dynamic. I referenced myself specifically in your response.

Bingo! I think quite a few confuse compliance and submission. They are not one in the same.

Well, I'm one of those who confuses compliance and submission. Do you really think I'm a confused individual?

Insofar as the risks that are undertaken by some BDSM folk to start relationships, that's really an entirely separate (and very fascinating) thread.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 8:35:23 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		leadership527,

quote:

I think I can hazard a guess though that this is why I prefer the subs who don't feel their submission. We would very probably get to the bottom of this conversation over a cup of coffee face to face. But through the medium of a discussion board I sincerely doubt that actual understanding is likely.


Your comment reminded me of something. You remark that Carol's response is automatic. I do react to someone in the same manner. I'm given a directive and I do as I'm told. It is continual state of deference. But here's the caveat, I've been with her for years.

I gave some consideration to what you said. If I entered into an exchange with my Lady I would probably respond a lot like Carol does. I've been at her side for years. She loves me and would never intentionally cause me harm. Her lessons can be challenging but I know she has my best interest at heart. I have never questioned that. I am not argumentative at all. I wouldn't dream of ever disrespecting her or being disobedient. It is unthinkable.

I love her. She brings me untold joy and has added so much to my life. We were well acquainted before she became Mentor and even now she hasn't stepped away. She remains. I have no doubt that our relationship and the time we've shared before and during its inception has largely influenced my receptiveness.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: feeling submissive - 6/1/2010 8:43:06 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		leadership527,

quote:

Well, I'm one of those who confuses compliance and submission. Do you really think I'm a confused individual?


In all honesty I'm baffled by your response. One truth doesn't negate the other. Yes, she's obedient. But maybe that has a lot to do with the fact that she's been married to you for umpteenth years as well. You can't acknowledge one and pretend the other does not exist.

And in terms of your relationship you have a partner that naturally yields without need of or regard for emotional engagement from you. All of which takes place with a backdrop of trust, dependability, and a million other adjectives I can throw in. Yielding under those circumstances is markedly different than when you're attempting to do the same while those things are being established.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 56
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Submissive >> RE: feeling submissive Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.079