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What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 11:22:19 AM   
MistressOfGa


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Hi everyone,

I have been reading a lot of posts (On Fet) about how to punish or handle a brat, and I decided to write up my own feelings regarding what my opinion of a brat is. Of course your views may differ, and if they do, I would love to hear them. These are only my thoughts about this topic. Not meant to be the be-all-end-all of what a brat is or isn't.

I know some simply use it as a catch-all for feisty. I don't. I like feisty, hell I've had feisty, what I didn't have and wouldn't accept is a brat, in the context of my definition of one.

A strong willed boy or girl can often pose quite a challenge, it takes a lot to earn their respect and confidence in you but once it is there the rewards are great. The need to please is intact and fully behind their submission. Even if they are occassionally struggling with their submission, they will work with you to get there.

A brat on the other hand has no interest in submitting. It isn't that they have a block in their submission, there is basically no submission there, no need to please. A brat isn't wanting to submit, they want to play games, argue, create drama, indulge in a power struggle where yes, they may end up being forced into something eventually.

That isn't a power exchange, that is a power struggle.

A pointless game for winning and it only reinforces the behavior, leads to more arguments and drama to get them to obey. They don't submit, even if you manage to get them to obey.

That isn't to say a brat can't be submissive, but frankly the chances are if he or she is playing that game with you then you are not the one who will draw that submission from him or her, unless you yourself are looking for that kind of power struggle.

It takes a lot of strength to submit, it only takes a brat to play games and need forcing. Submission can't be forced but obedience can. Submission can be inspired by their Dominant or Owner, they can fuel their sub/slaves need to please, but only the sub/slaves can choose to submit.

If you want a relationship with someone who submits, then chances are, a brat is not compatable with you.

Thoughts?

MoGa

Edited to fix text
Damn, and again I have to fix the text

< Message edited by MistressOfGa -- 5/31/2010 11:29:20 AM >

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 11:25:41 AM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		Yes!  We haven't visited this particular minefield for some while.  Nice going, MoGa! 

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 11:27:53 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Yes!  We haven't visited this particular minefield for some while.  Nice going, MoGa! 


I did my research to see if it had been visited in the past month or two. I was also inspired to write this because of the Lurch thread.

You are welcome

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 11:40:57 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Hmm, I think "brat" is a bit independent of D/s orientation. I think of it as being more of a "SAM," "little girl (or boy), or part of a "force" play dynamic. The person can be genuinely submissive, but occasionally be defiant in a very playful, silly, or childish way (hopefully with the consent ahead of time of their partner). I think I'd get tired of it if it were a constant part of their personality, but if it were something they needed or wanted to express occasionally, in a healthy way, it would be fine. I can't find the thread right now, but I made one a while back on bratty animal play. I think it would be hilarious for someone to counter surf or chew on their owner's shoe or some such during puppy play, for example. I enjoy force play, but it tends to be physical rather than verbal, and I've never played games about it. It's something I bring up during fairly early relationship discussion/negotiations. I very much respect any limits my partner has (on either side of things), but tussling around can be fun.

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 11:47:58 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Feisty, sassy, energetic, playful, those are all good things.

To me, "brat" says immature, selfish, obnoxious, nasty...nothing good. Bratting is a popular thing with some spankos, but for me? No thanks.

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 12:12:09 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		It doesn't matter what your definition is when it comes to my relationship. It only matters that his and my definition matches.

For what it's worth, me being a brat is considered a good thing. I only start talking back, tickling him, etc when I feel secure and loved. When I'm quiet and obedient is when I'm in a bad place. But as I said, that's our definition. The only people you need to convey your definition to is a prospective sub.


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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 12:21:50 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Feisty, sassy, energetic, playful, those are all good things.

To me, "brat" says immature, selfish, obnoxious, nasty...nothing good.


Agreed. 
 
FTR, I don't just like feisty and sassy, I need it.  Few things irritate me more than someone with a personality like a lump of clay.  That being said, "brat" is not only indicative of immaturity, it also carries the connotation of someone who is manipulative.  A brat deliberately challenges authority, disobeys, and generally acts like an ass with the goal of goading a dominant into a reaction.  While there's a lot to be said for a role-playing scene that involves acting bratty, such behavior at other times is essentially subjecting the dominant to the "sub's" kink in a non-consensual fashion.
 
Hard. Limit.

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 12:55:01 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		While I agree with Celeste's point--as usual! I don't see fun, silly, playful behaviour as bratty. My VelvetBuddy has is right---I need that feisty fun lover! I do not need the poke-poke kind of goading.

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 1:20:06 PM   
GraciousLady


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Status: offline 		For me brat and drama are pretty much the same. But I can see where having, or being, a brat can be great fun for some.

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 2:55:01 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
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quote:

It doesn't matter what your definition is when it comes to my relationship. It only matters that his and my definition matches.


That is exactly right. My definition is my definition as to how it applies to me and mine. I am also in agreement when it comes to having a fun, laughing, having a good time submissive. I draw the line when it becomes all games and he doesn't think that obeying me has anything to do with serving me.

I have had brats (As most can attest to hehe) but they also knew when I said stop, they stopped. But I love to tickle and run through the house laughing and chasing or being chased. Big difference here, between someone who is being a brat to gain something that they know they aren't going to get and someone who is enjoying the playful interaction between us.

MoGa

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 6:19:04 PM   
blackpearl81


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I (like everyone else) have my moments of bratiness. But, in all honesty, I just do it for the humor value. I don't think I'd be like IRL.


Being "bratty" is like eating candy: Once in a while is nice (comic relief?) but too much at once and stuff starts to rot (a relationship)

YMMV though.

< Message edited by blackpearl81 -- 5/31/2010 6:31:28 PM >

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 6:49:09 PM   
PeonForHer


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Of course, there will always be some who will suggest that it isn't generally a problem of subs being brats, but dommes having too fragile a sense of their own dommeliness and therefore feeling challenged at the slightest sign of a sub having his or her own personality.   Others will say that those dommes who have subs who act in a bratty way just haven't learned how to handle subs because, basically, they're incompetent dommes who don't know what makes subs tick. 

How would dommes here retort to such obviously ridiculous charges?

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 7:02:12 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		HIJACK!!!

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 7:07:17 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		HI JILL!

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 7:12:57 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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Status: offline 		Trying to get your pic in the dictionary, darling?

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 5/31/2010 7:39:30 PM   
TheLadyIsADomme


Posts: 89
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From: Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR,

Of course, there will always be some who will suggest that it isn't generally a problem of subs being brats, but dommes having too fragile a sense of their own dommeliness and therefore feeling challenged at the slightest sign of a sub having his or her own personality.   Others will say that those dommes who have subs who act in a bratty way just haven't learned how to handle subs because, basically, they're incompetent dommes who don't know what makes subs tick. 

How would dommes here retort to such obviously ridiculous charges?


I think that is an interesting question, actually. Maybe somewhat of a chicken and egg question as well. If a domme is not as confident as she could/should be, would a sub then act "bratty" to "inspire" her? Or, would the brattiness cause a less confident domme be deflated in the face of brattiness?

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 6/1/2010 9:40:37 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		When this topic started yesterday, I went looking for a written piece that I had come across some time ago that was very good about the positives of owning a submissive who is a brat.  I was a bit disappointed in not being able to find it, as I feel it would have helped to balance the discussion a bit.

It's very rare for Me to label someone as a brat, even if that is the way they choose to label themselves.  SAMs don't really equate the same thing for Me and even then, I can see that as being all in fun.  The same with the immaturity thing.  Heck, if I'm playing around, there are certain situations where I'm being a bit of immature or teasing in some sort of way.

I think for Me it really comes down to power struggle in the non-frivolous sense.  I think most Dommes out there can identify with the area that I'm talking about.  The tone change and body language that you have when you say "no" and mean it.  The one that conveys 'it is in your best interest to remember who is in charge around here' and time to stop whatever behavior.  If whatever it is continues, that is where it crosses into brat for Me.


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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 6/1/2010 11:14:41 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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Status: offline 		As a matter of interest, LP - did your appreciation of SAMs grow as you got more experienced?  Did you find them harder to deal with when you were 'starting out'?

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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 6/1/2010 12:12:01 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

As a matter of interest, LP - did your appreciation of SAMs grow as you got more experienced?  Did you find them harder to deal with when you were 'starting out'?

Unfortunately, peon, I don't think it would be fair for Me to answer.  You have to remember that in My specific case, I didn't particularly start out as sadistic, so SAMs weren't especially a part of My playing field.  (Using the literal form of the term.)

In theory, I can see where you're heading.  Especially in those cases where those starting out might be lacking confidence in this area as well as others.  That first year or two can be challenging.


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RE: What Is Your Definition Of A "Brat"? - 6/1/2010 3:26:34 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

As a matter of interest, LP - did your appreciation of SAMs grow as you got more experienced?  Did you find them harder to deal with when you were 'starting out'?

Unfortunately, peon, I don't think it would be fair for Me to answer.  You have to remember that in My specific case, I didn't particularly start out as sadistic, so SAMs weren't especially a part of My playing field.  (Using the literal form of the term.)

In theory, I can see where you're heading.  Especially in those cases where those starting out might be lacking confidence in this area as well as others.  That first year or two can be challenging.


Thanks, LP.  I suppose that 'SAM' was too specific a term for my purposes.  I was thinking in a more general sense about whether dommes found it harder to deal with that 'sassy' sort of sub in their early days as 'practising dominants' (want of a better term).  In that respect I'm very intrigued by your comment that 'the first year or two can be challenging'.

But this is a question I'd like to throw open to the wider group here, too . . . .

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