RE: Liberal Values (Full Version)

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thornhappy -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 6:12:25 PM)

I kinda thought libertarians would fall under idealism, too.  Many seem to regard Rand's writing as non-fiction.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Liberal values = idealism



realcoolhand -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 6:13:25 PM)

Just as many would view idealism a ba-hogus.



jin99 -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 7:54:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

And what would that be?



I am presuming you are asking this question not for edification--because you seem to have an idea what it is already--but to continue the thread. Very well then.

There is a historical component and substantial ideological differences between liberals and the "left" per se, if by left you mean commies.

From the 1900s-1920s, following the formulation of Leninism and its victory in Russia, communism split to two. One group supported Lenin and Stalin became what we call communists now (egg head speak calls it "state" communism). The other faction believe that overthrowing democratic institutions by force is illegal and against the Marxist ideal of socialist democracy. When social democrats abandoned the abolition of private property as a cause--basically acknowledging social ills Marx discussed but rejecting his solutions--they became liberals.

What is liberalism today? There is an agreement with the conservatives that political freedom and fundamental human rights are to be respected. What we disagree about is equality. Liberals believe that economic and social equality are positive goods and the government should intervene when society's self-correcting mechanisms fail. Another related issue is economy; conservatives believe that the management of the economy should be left to the entrepreneurs and the free market will solve its own problems. Liberals are not so sure.

Societally, conservatives believe in... well, this I am not sure, not being a conservative... tradition? Christianity morality? Liberals believe mores have, and always have been, in constant flux, and have no qualms in changing them if it improves the lives of the citizenry.



TheHeretic -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 8:33:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

This is the thread where self-identified conservatives on CM compete by quipping about how "liberal values" is an oxymoron to win themselves a couple of new assholes courtesy of the self-identified liberals on CM. And . . . GO!



"Liberal values" isn't an oxymoron. It's just a big lie, quickly discarded and forgotten when they become inconvenient. They are talking points. Nothing more.

LadyE, get over yourself.



realcoolhand -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 8:36:42 PM)

Exactly what I was talking about; empty rhetoric. You could solve the energy crisis and single-handedly end U.S. dependence on foreign oil, if only you'd direct that stream of hot air toward a wind farm. Can you imagine if all that sound and fury, which as presently applied signifies nothing, were put to good use?



realcoolhand -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 8:41:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


"Liberal values" isn't an oxymoron. It's just a big lie . . . .


Oops; forgot to identify what "it" is; if the only measure you'll allow for "it's" truth is you're judgment, and no opportunity to test "it's" metal, I think I'll pass.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic [Q]uickly discarded and forgotten when they become inconvenient.


Now "they're" plural, are they? The lies abound, still hidden in shadow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: They are talking points. Nothing more.



Whatever "they" are, at least they're not just pictures of an elected President adorned with hastily scribbled nose-combs.



realcoolhand -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 8:43:24 PM)

Well don't just stand there, bust a move!



kdsub -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 8:56:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

This is the thread where self-identified conservatives on CM compete by quipping about how "liberal values" is an oxymoron to win themselves a couple of new assholes courtesy of the self-identified liberals on CM. And . . . GO!



Real cool, do you mean "Liberal" values or "Leftist" values?
There is a big differance!


Popeye...they mean the ONLY CORRECT values as seen and understood by the enlightened.

Gee I wish I was as smart as they

Butch



realcoolhand -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 9:00:26 PM)

So do I; if you were, you might be able to get a little more specific with your criticisms (i.e., what particularly "liberal" values you find so abhorent) and enlighten us poor benighted pinkos.



kdsub -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 9:05:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

So do I; if you were, you might be able to get a little more specific with your criticisms (i.e., what particularly "liberal" values you find so abhorent) and enlighten us poor benighted pinkos.


I'm not criticizing any value...I just understand there is more than one honorable way to look, judge, and value any happening or situation. I don't believe in liberal or conservative values... I believe in my values.

Butch



realcoolhand -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 9:11:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm not criticizing any value...I just understand there is more than one honorable way to look, judge, and value any happening or situation. I don't believe in liberal or conservation values... I believe in my values.



I have to agree with you there; what I do deplore is the lack of specificity and snide, self-congratulatory, dismissive and mocking tone that so often marks the narrative of the "movement conservatives" in the United States. I will punch holes in that all day long, and pray like the dickens that folks actually drop the rhetoric and dig into the discussion we ought to be having.



kdsub -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 9:17:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm not criticizing any value...I just understand there is more than one honorable way to look, judge, and value any happening or situation. I don't believe in liberal or conservation values... I believe in my values.



I have to agree with you there; what I do deplore is the lack of specificity and snide, self-congratulatory, dismissive and mocking tone that so often marks the narrative of the "movement conservatives" in the United States. I will punch holes in that all day long, and pray like the dickens that folks actually drop the rhetoric and dig into the discussion we ought to be having.


But don't you see you are using the same mocking tone that you abhor in others. Otherwise you are no better than they.

I don’t believe you mean to…I think you are frustrated with some of the rhetoric on CM but unless you change your tone you will be dismissed as radical and your contributions minimized.
I don’t mean to sound condescending but trying to give advise to someone new to the forum.

Butch



realcoolhand -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 9:23:30 PM)

I do appreciate the a advice, and do look forward to getting back to economic analyses of contemporary issues, without much political flavor to them, and a little biblical exegesis here and there. You are right that I started this thread out of frustration, with the intention of drawing fire in a forum where it could be returned without disrupting others' discussions.



TheHeretic -> RE: Liberal Values (6/1/2010 9:32:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

Well don't just stand there, bust a move!



That stuff will wreck your teeth.



NorthernGent -> RE: Liberal Values (6/2/2010 1:08:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Liberal values = idealism



Can do.....it can = pragmatism.

For example......

You may want to see redistribution of wealth as you believe everyone is entitled to a certain standard of living (idealism).

You may want to see redistribution of wealth as you believe investment breeds success.....rather like a business invests in its technology and staff to earn a return.....you don't need to make a judgement on who is entitled to what when following this line of thought (pragmatism).



NorthernGent -> RE: Liberal Values (6/2/2010 1:15:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

I kinda thought libertarians would fall under idealism, too.  Many seem to regard Rand's writing as non-fiction.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Liberal values = idealism



Are people seriously saying that the conservative view of maintaining the established order is not an ideal? 'Course it is....it's built upon the premise that people are best served by not sloughing off the past and that civilised institutions have got us where we are....to mess with them is dangerous.

It is telling that at this juncture not many people understand the foundations of these ideals.....nor care....and choose to simply throw around cheap soundbites......the consumer culture I suppose......and really it seems both Liberalism and Conservatism have failed in England.......neither intended for us to become mere consumers.



DCWoody -> RE: Liberal Values (6/2/2010 2:05:45 AM)

When I say liberal I mean liberal, i.e to do with liberty, this idea that liberalism is somehow descended from communism is the biggest load of crap I've seen today.

Liberal in america seems to be little more than an insult.

As I use it....
To quote wikipedia
"Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom"[1]) is the belief in the importance of liberty and equality.[2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, free trade, secularism, and the market economy."

That's me. A Liberal....nothing to do with communism, nothing to do with global warming, nothing to do with political correctness.



realcoolhand -> RE: Liberal Values (6/2/2010 3:58:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

When I say liberal I mean liberal, i.e to do with liberty, this idea that liberalism is somehow descended from communism is the biggest load of crap I've seen today.

* * *

As I use it....
To quote wikipedia
"Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom"[1]) is the belief in the importance of liberty and equality.[2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, free trade, secularism, and the market economy."

That's me. A Liberal....nothing to do with communism, nothing to do with global warming, nothing to do with political correctness.



I wholeheartedly agree with that definition, which (apart from the bit about secularism) fairly describes my perspective. I've just got it in for "movement" conservatives with more jerked-knees and slogans than sense.



thishereboi -> RE: Liberal Values (6/2/2010 4:37:48 AM)

I think we have enough of the right vs left bullshit on these forums without encouraging it.



thishereboi -> RE: Liberal Values (6/2/2010 4:44:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

This is a problem. The self identified conservatives here have no idea what a liberal is, what a liberal policy is or what liberal values might be. This was more than amply demonstrated last week when upon invite they were each unable to risk as much as a comment on my thread for fear of being laughed off the boards for not knowing what it is theyre against.

E


Well of course not, everyone knows conservatives are just a bunch of ignorant folk. Thank god we have the supergenious liberals to keep us in line.[8|]



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