RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks

RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (Full Version)

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thompsonx -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/2/2010 8:54:08 AM)
quote: Maybe you noticed that this was a tiny amount of oil, only enough to create a thin sheen, in a shallow pond? The video I watched had more than a thin scheen it had thick globs. Maybe you noticed the bacteria only ate the oil products that were lighter than water? Which oil is heavier than water? To get all the crude spilled into the gulf would require bacteria below the water's surface which would deplete the oxygen supply if enough were used to actually quickly biodegrade the amount of oil we're dealing with. The gulf is about a mile or so deep where the blowout is. The oil is a minute fraction of the water in the gulf. Do you have any data to support your objections. I know many feel that ro is a "wack job" but the people in the video do not appear to be "wack jobs" and this was used on the tanker spill in the video. The video seemed to dispell any negative side effects.

DomKen -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/2/2010 9:08:13 AM)
Sprayed on bacteria not being very effective: http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2010/04/can-microbes-save-the-gulf-beach.html Fertilizing natural bacteria result sin harm to the environment: http://www.smartertechnology.com/c/a/Global-Challenges/Can-Biotech-Help-Clean-the-BP-Oil-Spill/ (since we're talking using nitrates as fertilizers we're almost certainly talking about oxygen depletion as part of the problem) The area in question is already perilously low in oxygen: http://serc.carleton.edu/microbelife/topics/deadzone/ As to what parts of crude oil are heavier than water? Virtually all of it. That's why when the surface tension is disrupted by dispersants the oil sinks below the surface.

thornhappy -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/2/2010 3:34:28 PM)
Never mistake for malice that which can be explained by sheer stupidity. quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy I doubt the spill was planned. I do think there were dumb short cuts taken. I for one do not believe in experts making "dumb" mistakes. I believe in negligence and fraud.

rulemylife -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/2/2010 3:56:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thornhappy Never mistake for malice that which can be explained by sheer stupidity. quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne I for one do not believe in experts making "dumb" mistakes. I believe in negligence and fraud. It doesn't matter, either way it was negligent.

Dubbelganger -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/2/2010 4:09:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen As to what parts of crude oil are heavier than water? Virtually all of it. That's why when the surface tension is disrupted by dispersants the oil sinks below the surface. Goddamn! I need to go back to Shell R&D & let them know that everything they thought they knew about oil was wrong! Of course, I never worked with 3-phase systems for nearly 10 years, so what the fuck do I know?

DomKen -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/2/2010 5:00:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen As to what parts of crude oil are heavier than water? Virtually all of it. That's why when the surface tension is disrupted by dispersants the oil sinks below the surface. Goddamn! I need to go back to Shell R&D & let them know that everything they thought they knew about oil was wrong! Of course, I never worked with 3-phase systems for nearly 10 years, so what the fuck do I know? Are you actually claiming a gallon of average crude weighs less than the 8 lbs. that a gallon of water weights? Or are using the light sweet standard? BTW since even light sweet only weighs a little less than water as whole that still means a lot of the components must weight more, otherwise centrifuging and distillation would be impossible. Essentially all the hydrocarbons longer than octane, IIRC, is heavier than water.

thompsonx -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/2/2010 7:17:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Sprayed on bacteria not being very effective: http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2010/04/can-microbes-save-the-gulf-beach.html This article says that it is very effective. quote: Experiments have shown that adding nutrients like nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium to the beaches can speed up the ability of natural bacteria to break down oil. "What would've taken 5 or 6 years to accomplish can occur in a single summer," says Lee. Fertilizing natural bacteria result sin harm to the environment: http://www.smartertechnology.com/c/a/Global-Challenges/Can-Biotech-Help-Clean-the-BP-Oil-Spill/ (since we're talking using nitrates as fertilizers we're almost certainly talking about oxygen depletion as part of the problem)ote]According to Hazen, who has studied the long-term effects of the Amoco Cadiz spill of 1978 and the Exxon Valdez spill of 1989, untreated areas of coastline recover naturally within a few years, but chemically treated areas sustain more long-term damage He appears to be talking bout chemical dispersants because microbs were not used in the exon valdez or the exxon cadiz spills to my knowledge. quote: According to Hazen, who has studied the long-term effects of the Amoco Cadiz spill of 1978 and the Exxon Valdez spill of 1989, untreated areas of coastline recover naturally within a few years, but chemically treated areas sustain more long-term damage The area in question is already perilously low in oxygen: http://serc.carleton.edu/microbelife/topics/deadzone/ The map seems to show the "dead zone" as being 20 to 30 miles off the louisaina coast while the blowout is a hundred and thirty miles from the coast. As to what parts of crude oil are heavier than water? Virtually all of it. That's why when the surface tension is disrupted by dispersants the oil sinks below the surface. According to bp this is light sweet crude which is quite a bit lighter than water quote: Bob Dudley, BP managing director for the Americas and Asia. "This crude is what's called a light-sweet crude. http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/14/gulf.oil.spill/index.html

Dubbelganger -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/4/2010 2:03:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen As to what parts of crude oil are heavier than water? Virtually all of it. That's why when the surface tension is disrupted by dispersants the oil sinks below the surface. Goddamn! I need to go back to Shell R&D & let them know that everything they thought they knew about oil was wrong! Of course, I never worked with 3-phase systems for nearly 10 years, so what the fuck do I know? Are you actually claiming a gallon of average crude weighs less than the 8 lbs. that a gallon of water weights? Or are using the light sweet standard? BTW since even light sweet only weighs a little less than water as whole that still means a lot of the components must weight more, otherwise centrifuging and distillation would be impossible. Essentially all the hydrocarbons longer than octane, IIRC, is heavier than water. Let me amend that. Virtually all oil that is produced by conventional methods (oil that is not classified as "bitumen") has a density of less than 1000kg/cubic meter. So, for all practical purposes, average crude weighs less than 8.35 pounds per US gallon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/API_gravity Distillation has nothing to do with density; it is a function of the boiling points of the various liquids in solution. See Roualt's Law; Dalton's Law; partial pressure; azeotrope. The Chemical Rubber Company Handbook of Chemistry and Physics has tables of partial pressures and boiling points of binary, trinary, and quaternary mixtures.

Dubbelganger -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/6/2010 1:30:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen As to what parts of crude oil are heavier than water? Virtually all of it. That's why when the surface tension is disrupted by dispersants the oil sinks below the surface. Goddamn! I need to go back to Shell R&D & let them know that everything they thought they knew about oil was wrong! Of course, I never worked with 3-phase systems for nearly 10 years, so what the fuck do I know? Are you actually claiming a gallon of average crude weighs less than the 8 lbs. that a gallon of water weights? Or are using the light sweet standard? BTW since even light sweet only weighs a little less than water as whole that still means a lot of the components must weight more, otherwise centrifuging and distillation would be impossible. Essentially all the hydrocarbons longer than octane, IIRC, is heavier than water. Let me amend that. Virtually all oil that is produced by conventional methods (oil that is not classified as "bitumen") has a density of less than 1000kg/cubic meter. So, for all practical purposes, average crude weighs less than 8.35 pounds per US gallon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/API_gravity Distillation has nothing to do with density; it is a function of the boiling points of the various liquids in solution. See Roualt's Law; Dalton's Law; partial pressure; azeotrope. The Chemical Rubber Company Handbook of Chemistry and Physics has tables of partial pressures and boiling points of binary, trinary, and quaternary mixtures. Oh, fuck, man! I didn't lose him, did I? I think I did. It's so easy to do on Teh Interwebs. Loose a connection, and the next thing ya know, it's three months later and Teh Googlegenius completely ignores the fact that he got his ass handed to him. Ken, you and I are pretty much of the same political persuasion. That's why I am really disappointed that you seem to be adopting Tea-bagger tactics. I mean, I'm enough of a man to admit when I am wrong, and that happens with some frequency. I know a couple folks on another pervy board who are google experts. They don't actually have any real knowledge of anything, but they will try and beat you down with endless googles, pretending that they really are knowledgeable about everything in the whole universe. Now, me, I don't know fuck-all about sports. I know Tiger Woods won a Superbowl Ring in the last Winter Olympics. I know Joe Namath threw a spear over 78 yards. But that's about it. I know that Ford made a car engine that had over 800 foot-pounds of horses. And, when they strapped it into the Corvair body, it went 0-60mph in about a quarter mile. But I'll be the first to admit that I have no knowledge of chemistry, or oil, or density, or freezing point depression/boiling point elevation (based on molality), or fractional distillation, or vacuum distillation, or azeotropic mixtures, or any of that shit. So I would take it as a real kindness if you could point out where I have been led astray, or give some small consideration to the fact that I might actually have a small amount of knowledge which I acquired in my 10 years at Shell Exploration and Production Enhanced Recovery Research Department in Bellaire, Texas.

luckydawg -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/6/2010 3:54:51 AM)
Yet much of the oil is sinking to the bottom, and also did in the Valdez accident, right? I hate to agree with domken, but doesnt a lot of stuff evaporate out of the oil (benzye, ect a bunch of stuff that is lighter than air), after which the remaining sludge is less bouyant? He said centrifuging and distilling. The centrifuging part is valid, isn't it?

DomKen -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/6/2010 3:33:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger But I'll be the first to admit that I have no knowledge of chemistry, or oil, or density, or freezing point depression/boiling point elevation (based on molality), or fractional distillation, or vacuum distillation, or azeotropic mixtures, or any of that shit. So I would take it as a real kindness if you could point out where I have been led astray, or give some small consideration to the fact that I might actually have a small amount of knowledge which I acquired in my 10 years at Shell Exploration and Production Enhanced Recovery Research Department in Bellaire, Texas. You know basic chemistry right? You know that in a technical sense weight could be desnity of a volume of material at a certain temperature or it could be the mass of a single molecule. Light crude is lighter than water at 60F by definition. That is on a gallon to gallon basis. Of course the vast majority of hydrocarbons that make up that crude are heavier, molecularly speaking, than H2O. Does crude float on water? Some of it does. Most of it doesn't. You can easily enough do the math for any crude oil spill ever and see that the oil sheen visible on the surface is simply too small to be all the crude spilled. Are you denying any of this?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/6/2010 8:01:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger Ken, you and I are pretty much of the same political persuasion. That's why I am really disappointed that you seem to be adopting Tea-bagger tactics. They arent tactics, he actually thinks he's right. He has been proven wrong 12 ways from Sunday on numerous topics and is still in denial. See his asinine response to your post.

DomKen -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/6/2010 8:31:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger Ken, you and I are pretty much of the same political persuasion. That's why I am really disappointed that you seem to be adopting Tea-bagger tactics. They arent tactics, he actually thinks he's right. He has been proven wrong 12 ways from Sunday on numerous topics and is still in denial. See his asinine response to your post. What was incorrect in that post? Put up or shut up.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/6/2010 8:48:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger Ken, you and I are pretty much of the same political persuasion. That's why I am really disappointed that you seem to be adopting Tea-bagger tactics. They arent tactics, he actually thinks he's right. He has been proven wrong 12 ways from Sunday on numerous topics and is still in denial. See his asinine response to your post. What was incorrect in that post? Put up or shut up. More importantly, what was right about it? Put up or shut up. Hint: there is only 1 grade of crude oil that is heavier than water, and it doesnt flow freely.

DomKen -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/6/2010 9:28:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger Ken, you and I are pretty much of the same political persuasion. That's why I am really disappointed that you seem to be adopting Tea-bagger tactics. They arent tactics, he actually thinks he's right. He has been proven wrong 12 ways from Sunday on numerous topics and is still in denial. See his asinine response to your post. What was incorrect in that post? Put up or shut up. More importantly, what was right about it? Put up or shut up. Hint: there is only 1 grade of crude oil that is heavier than water, and it doesnt flow freely. Really? Only one grade of extra heavy crude is heavier than water? Which bitumen would that be? Or are you unaware that petroleum grades include location as well as density and sulphur content? As to whether it flows? Where did I say anything about flowing?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/6/2010 11:23:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger Ken, you and I are pretty much of the same political persuasion. That's why I am really disappointed that you seem to be adopting Tea-bagger tactics. They arent tactics, he actually thinks he's right. He has been proven wrong 12 ways from Sunday on numerous topics and is still in denial. See his asinine response to your post. What was incorrect in that post? Put up or shut up. More importantly, what was right about it? Put up or shut up. Hint: there is only 1 grade of crude oil that is heavier than water, and it doesnt flow freely. Really? Only one grade of extra heavy crude is heavier than water? Which bitumen would that be? Or are you unaware that petroleum grades include location as well as density and sulphur content? As to whether it flows? Where did I say anything about flowing? Obviously you wouldnt mention that the only crude heavier than water doesnt flow...it destroys your ridiculous claims that oil from the BP well, which is obviously flowing, is more dense than seawater and "sinks" so that bacteria would have to attack it below the surface.

heartcream -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/6/2010 11:37:52 PM)
I wish it would work, I wish all the beautiful animals, water and land did not suffer at the hands of the dickless wonders.

Dubbelganger -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/7/2010 1:55:42 AM)
"Generally speaking, oil with an API gravity between 40 and 45 commands the highest prices. Above 45 degrees the molecular chains become shorter and less valuable to refineries.[1] Crude oil is classified as light, medium or heavy, according to its measured API gravity. Light crude oil is defined as having an API gravity higher than 31.1 °API. (less than 870 kg/m3) Medium oil is defined as having an API gravity between 22.3 °API and 31.1 °API. (870 to 920 kg/m3) Heavy oil is defined as having an API gravity below 22.3 °API. (920 to 1000 kg/m3) Extra heavy oil is defined with API gravity below 10.0 °API. (greater than 1000 kg/m3) Not all parties use the same grading.[2] The United States Geological Survey uses slightly different definitions.[3] Simply put, bitumen sinks in fresh water, while oil floats. Crude oil with API gravity less than 10 °API is referred to as extra heavy oil or bitumen. Bitumen derived from the oil sands deposits in the Alberta, Canada area has an API gravity of around 8 °API. It is 'upgraded' to an API gravity of 31 °API to 33 °API, and the upgraded oil is known as synthetic crude." Water has a molecular weight of 18 g/mol. N-Hexane (a common organic solvent) has a molecular weight of 86.18 g/mol. Hexane floats on water. What was your point about molecular weight and density again?

DomKen -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/7/2010 11:48:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger Water has a molecular weight of 18 g/mol. N-Hexane (a common organic solvent) has a molecular weight of 86.18 g/mol. Hexane floats on water. What was your point about molecular weight and density again? That weight can mean 2 different things. Which you just demonstrated.

DomKen -> RE: Gulf Oil Spill-Gutsy Solution Restores Environment in Just Six Weeks (6/7/2010 11:50:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Really? Only one grade of extra heavy crude is heavier than water? Which bitumen would that be? Or are you unaware that petroleum grades include location as well as density and sulphur content? As to whether it flows? Where did I say anything about flowing? Obviously you wouldnt mention that the only crude heavier than water doesnt flow...it destroys your ridiculous claims that oil from the BP well, which is obviously flowing, is more dense than seawater and "sinks" so that bacteria would have to attack it below the surface. Are you out of your fucking mind? All one has to do is look at the oil washing up on beaches to see that all of the oil isn't on the surface. Where do you think the tar balls on those Florida beaches are coming from? Do you think they magically condensed out of oil sheen on the water's surface? Just to straighten out your moronic beliefs. Petroleum is a mixture of a lot of stuff but is primarily made up of hydrocarbons. Different lengths of hydrocarbon chain have very different chemical and physical properties. Methane (the shortest) is a gas at room temperature while octane is a liquid. Chains longer than octane are sinks out of petroleum in this sort of spill.

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