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When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 2:24:51 AM   
notsonameless


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Recent developments with a long-time friend and casual play-partner have got me thinking a lot about emotions. More specifically, how emotions change and grow over time.

The long and short of it is... me and my play-partner have been good friends for years. About 2 years ago she got into BDSM and we started playing together. We've been playing happily as friends for a while now, but just recently she told me that she would have to stop playing with me because her feelings for me have changed. She says she now has feelings for me beyond just friendship, but since my feelings for her are not the same (plus, we'd also make a terrible couple, lol) it would be better and less painful for her for us to stop playing altogether.

Aside from the tiny selfish part of me that is obviously a little disappointed, I would never want to hurt her, so I am fine with stopping if that's what she wants and needs to do. Our friendship is too important to me to want to push and damage it.

The thing is, though... this has happened before. Three other times. Making this the fourth. And I feel awful because my feelings for them have never developed into romantic feelings, and the fact that theirs HAVE makes me wonder if this is a common occurrence between casual play-partners/friends who play together often? Is it something about the BDSM activities specifically that inspire these kinds of feelings in people? Or just a simple matter of closeness, proximity, trust and intimacy in general? Or... general sweeping state... is it perhaps a gender thing? I am less inclined to believe this, but thought I would bring it up, anyway. The four people I mentioned have all been women.

So, I would be really grateful to hear people's opinions. Or if anybody has been through something similar... from either end of the emotional scale, I'd like to hear how you handled it, or how it affected you or your play or your friendship.

Thanks.
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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 3:22:35 AM   
DarkSteven


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Has this happened to you before with vanilla friends, that they cared for you and you did not feel emotions for them?

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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 3:29:50 AM   
notsonameless


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I've never not had emotions for my friends. I am specifically talking about romantic feelings in this context, not feelings of love/care/fondness/friendship in general.

But no, in answer to your question, I've never had a long-time vanilla friend develop romantic feelings for me. Only the people I have played with.

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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 3:38:02 AM   
PeanutTigerinBox


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quote:

ORIGINAL: notsonameless
Is it something about the BDSM activities specifically that inspire these kinds of feelings in people? Or just a simple matter of closeness, proximity, trust and intimacy in general?


IMO it has nothing to do with BDSM as after all you can also grow fond of a vanilla friend over time...my sister in law couldn't stand my brother (and I don't blame her) but then after drinking beer she realised that he wouldn't be such a bad one after all Now they are married and have a kid....

Maybe she simply grew more fond of you over the time whilst you interacted with her, but as I said, IMO that could also have happened if you both would be vanilla and just spent regular time together to go out to pubs or doing whwatever...

I do understand her point, though, as I usually have the problem the other way around to tell folks that I have no interest in NSA....and gosh do they keep trying at times...however, not gonna happen here...just yesterday one guy from the UK thought that we could be a couple until I leave this country for good...where I told him thanks, but no thanks...guess I am just not desperate enough to be laid to agree to that. If I want a good time in that respect I meet my ex sometimes as at least we are still friends and there we truly have a good time and know both that we don't want anything else afterwards...however, if I would still grief about him or still would like to be with him, then I would not agree to it....but with him I moved on from that stage as I am just glad in general that he is a true friend in my life...

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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 5:33:04 AM   
ReginaMirus


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My guess would be that they want more for the exact same reason I want more.

With casual play, unless you're showering me with gifts, tribute, or your time, devotion, affection and attention, there's really nothing in it for me.

You just get your jollies at MY expense, which is something I can't get too excited about over time.

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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 8:22:15 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: notsonameless
The thing is, though... this has happened before. Three other times. Making this the fourth. And I feel awful because my feelings for them have never developed into romantic feelings, and the fact that theirs HAVE makes me wonder if this is a common occurrence between casual play-partners/friends who play together often? Is it something about the BDSM activities specifically that inspire these kinds of feelings in people? Or just a simple matter of closeness, proximity, trust and intimacy in general? Or... general sweeping state... is it perhaps a gender thing?


Thanks.

I wouldn't be willing to say how common it is or if is directly related to gender.  In My experience, it does happen quite often and I do attribute it to folks having feelings of greater intimacy with those that they are playing with involving BDSM.  There are some who don't play casually for that very reason.  They know themselves well enough to realize that they become attached on more than a friendship level and being swirled up in emotions that are experienced during play may not be the best criteria for them to form relationships on.  (That's not to say that you're not a good person or wouldn't be good relationship material.)  Very much like some folks aren't suited for casual sex.

I am sorry to hear that your play situation will no longer work for the two of you.  When I moved, one of the disappointments was leaving the area where I had friends that I had played with for years and that's a real bummer. 


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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 8:26:04 AM   
PeanutTigerinBox


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ReginaMirus

My guess would be that they want more for the exact same reason I want more.

With casual play, unless you're showering me with gifts, tribute, or your time, devotion, affection and attention, there's really nothing in it for me.

You just get your jollies at MY expense, which is something I can't get too excited about over time.


Very well said

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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 8:34:35 AM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: notsonameless


makes me wonder if this is a common occurrence between casual play-partners/friends who play together often? Is it something about the BDSM activities specifically that inspire these kinds of feelings in people? Or just a simple matter of closeness, proximity, trust and intimacy in general?



It is for me. I no longer play casually and only seek people that I feel I can truly have emotional intimacy with. I found that when I was doing the casual play thing, I would have feelings of attachment that weren't really supported by reality ie:nothing in common, no real interest after separation etc. Whether that happened due to the bdsm or closeness, I don't know. It is, however, rather difficult for me to not feel attachment to someone that I am that vulnerable with personally. However, the same issues with one sided attachment I have found to be common for many people I know in vanilla relationships involving sex.


< Message edited by laurell3 -- 6/2/2010 8:55:51 AM >


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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 9:28:26 AM   
Lockit


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I don't fall into a relationship by default and this is how I view fuck buddies and casual play partners because very often someone will move on to having a closer relationship and the other won't. Someone tends to get hurt. Whether they did what they did in hopes of it turning into more or not, things do change with the physical intimacy, for at least one person, in my experience. So I just won't go there to start with. I don't like hurting people and I don't like being hurt so I don't go there, even when tempted. (Damn it! lol)

There are times when that play or sex will lead them both into feeling more and being more, but I will wait for someone who wants what I want rather than hurt someone or be hurt with an involvement that amounts to a good time and nothing else. I want more. So I either get more or live without. The play time isn't what it's all about for me.

However, I would be a bit concerned over someone who chooses play partners and not partners for more. If you have a history of play type relationships and can go no further, I would wonder if you can allow yourself to be with someone you could be romantic about or if you have some intimacy problems or just want to play. I'd think there was something to that.


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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 9:44:59 AM   
youngsubgeoff


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In my experience, casual play can and does develop some sort of feelings, at least for me. I also have sub drop if it was a casual play type thing. For example, I went to a play party a couple weeks ago. I played with one Lady, rode the high that night and sunday, then come monday I sub dropped. Its nothing I cant handle, just need some good music, a workout, and maybe some chocolate lol.

I think it comes from the fact that this is part of who I am. I've tried vanilla dating, it doesnt work for me. I cant shut off my sub side.

< Message edited by youngsubgeoff -- 6/2/2010 9:46:25 AM >


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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 9:50:35 AM   
LadyNTrainer


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My secondary developed strong feelings for me long before I was aware of returning them.  I was constantly concerned as to whether I could give him enough to keep him happy in a relationship where he was not the primary and I was not able to tell him I loved him, but he really did seem to be okay with the situation.  He stuck with it with a smile on his face and absolutely no drama or jealousy, being deeply grateful for what he did get and consistently considerate, caring and supportive of my primary partner.

So yes, I did come to return his feelings over time.  It started for me as a deep friendship and intense D/s relationship, but it jumped the tracks when I learned that I could trust him completely to be a well integrated part of my life and my poly family, not just an extraneous toy or pet.   I still refer to him as my secondary because we don't live together, but he is a partner to me as well as also being my collared pet.

The process of figuring out my feelings for him, let alone expressing them, was a little more complicated for me because I have slightly odd brain wiring. I am very likely to be literally unaware of what I am feeling at any given time.   So it made things harder, but not impossible.  I generally operate more on logic than emotion, and I had already made the decision to be committed to the relationship long before I was aware of having very strong feelings for him beyond affection, kink compatibility and friendship.  It was a good decision.  I can honestly say now that I love them both, and that's really quite a milestone for me as I've historically been allergic to the L-word. 

Both my partners feel and freely express emotion much more easily than I do.  They tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves and be quite emotional, at least when it comes to expressing how they feel for me.  I don't tend to be as emotional or as expressive, or to fall for someone as easily or quickly.  So no, it's not a gender stereotypical thing with us; it's divided more across dominant versus submissive lines. 


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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 10:30:16 AM   
notsonameless


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quote:

So no, it's not a gender stereotypical thing with us; it's divided more across dominant versus submissive lines. 


Thank you for your reply, LadyNTrainer. That's very interesting. I've always found it fascinating hearing how these sorts of feelings and relationships develop between other people.


< Message edited by notsonameless -- 6/2/2010 10:31:27 AM >

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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 10:34:29 AM   
notsonameless


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ReginaMirus

My guess would be that they want more for the exact same reason I want more.

With casual play, unless you're showering me with gifts, tribute, or your time, devotion, affection and attention, there's really nothing in it for me.

You just get your jollies at MY expense, which is something I can't get too excited about over time.



I understand that everyone is different and wants different things, but I think I can honestly say that up until recently, my friend was getting the same thing out of playing as I was. She was a sadist and got off on causing pain, much as I am a masochist and got off on receiving pain. Mutual enjoyment from mutually enjoyed activities. Actually, she was more often than not the one who initiated any kind of play.

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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 3:31:46 PM   
porcelaine


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notsonameless,

quote:

Is it something about the BDSM activities specifically that inspire these kinds of feelings in people? Or just a simple matter of closeness, proximity, trust and intimacy in general? Or... general sweeping state... is it perhaps a gender thing?


I don't believe it is especially restricted to BDSM. I've seen this unfold in non kink situations. I have always maintained that the inherent risk of playing casually when both parties are not approaching it from the same perspective is the inevitability of one person desiring more than the other does or is willing to provide.

Now I'm going to be brutally honest with you. I know when I'm attracted to a man. And I don't need to play or climb in bed with him to figure that out. I also know the difference between interest, infatuation and an emotional impact. While I can have a dalliance with the first two, I would never engage the last. Especially if he has zero interest in me in that capacity. Now there are noted exceptions to this and I would be willing to accept the ramifications of engagement, but they are few and far between.

I won't call it irresponsible, but it's unnecessary hardship in my mind. The proverbial carrot dangling above ones head that the girl can never have. The liaisons often deepen the attachment/feelings that the interested party already possessed. Perhaps they don't know or naively convince themselves that they can handle it all. It usually ends as stated or far worse, especially when she keeps her feelings buried within. You can be proactive and ask them upfront but there's no guarantee that she'll spill her guts.

~porcelaine


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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/2/2010 10:29:01 PM   
MsSupplice


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IMHO I think it's probably the trust, the closeness, etc. I find that I have a hard time with casual play because I do end up having subs wanting more, or on the rare occasion that I want more we are both only looking at the one side of each other (the kink side) and (like everyone in the free world) we are more complex with that but the trust and intimacy that we share kinda throws everything else out of whack (like the fact that outside of play time we're excellent friends and would annoy the crap out of each other as lovers). Although I now only domme professionally I still find this to be a problem. Usually if I have a sub want more from me and I'm not feeling it, I usually have us take a play break and we can hang out as just friends and kind of regroup, usually, my feelings are the same but some of them find when I'm not wielding a flogger or a paddle etc I'm not quite as romantically attractive as I was. If I catch feelings, I usually end play time all together if I know the feeling isn't mutual. Hell, even if it is. I find it hard to be play partners with my SO. For me it's like working together and living together, too much in my face time. I don't know if this has been helpful at all but I just wanted to point out maybe some time away from the play space might kind of remind her of why you were just friends and not lovers in the first place.

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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/3/2010 8:30:30 AM   
Andalusite


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I can only keep play casual if I'm not especially attracted to the other person. I think my femsub playpartner is pretty, but I'm not romantically or sexually involved with her. I've played before with one of my gay friends, but obviously, there isn't any chemistry or expectation of a relationship there. I've occasionally played with couples in the past, but didn't tend to be as tempted for it to develop into a relationship as with a single guy who was close to my age. BDSM isn't automatically sexual, just as dancing isn't, but there are some people and circumstances that make it more likely to develop that way than others.

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RE: When emotions get in the way. - 6/3/2010 10:53:05 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

The thing is, though... this has happened before. Three other times. Making this the fourth. And I feel awful because my feelings for them have never developed into romantic feelings, and the fact that theirs HAVE makes me wonder if this is a common occurrence between casual play-partners/friends who play together often? Is it something about the BDSM activities specifically that inspire these kinds of feelings in people? Or just a simple matter of closeness, proximity, trust and intimacy in general? Or... general sweeping state... is it perhaps a gender thing? I am less inclined to believe this, but thought I would bring it up, anyway. The four people I mentioned have all been women.

So, I would be really grateful to hear people's opinions. Or if anybody has been through something similar... from either end of the emotional scale, I'd like to hear how you handled it, or how it affected you or your play or your friendship.


You don't mention which end of the kneel you fall on, but I've had similar experiences, as I tend to have play-partners with whom I participate in some of the activities which don't necessarily fit into our Household's "requirements" but which I enjoy quite a bit (particularly needle, ink, and cutting play). All of them have become dear friends over time. I've noticed that, as I've worked for extended periods of time with submissive play partners, they've come to yield up more and more of themselves to me -- to the point where their attentions and commitment registered in their own minds as 'romantic interest'. Unfortunately, maintaining a romantic relationship with me also entails maintaining a commitment to the others to whom I am committed by concatenative assembly. For most of them, this is unacceptable, as their preference in 'long-term committed partners' is monogamous in nature. For these individuals, we've also found that attempting to retain the limited-scale play that we did was too difficult for them, as they became more and more deeply entrenched with me, some to the point of even offering to set aside their deeply held beliefs about monogamy to enter into the House. Early in my time as Keeper, I actually did try this twice,  believing the individuals when they said that being with me was more important than their deeply held beliefs about monogamous relationships.. however, both situations ended most unsatisfactorily for everyone involved, and after this many years, I would not even consider such a proposition.

On the up side of this, it has opened up the possibility of exploring my interests with a number of individuals over time, and has kept this kind of play as an ever-exciting, ever-varied experience... and as an intensity freak, I find the repeated re-escalation of experiences, complete with the New Relationship Energy that comes out of sharing these experiences with new partners, exhilarating.

On the down side, it's very difficult to acknowledge that a relationship has gone as far as it can. Especially in our culture, it is considered "wrong" to contemplate endings and to find them an acceptable part of the cycle of a relationship. While I've found that I and my play-friends have had a relatively easy time in ending our play relationship while maintaining our friendship, it -has- required discussion, from the very beginning, about what grounds would constitute the need to stop playing and end that aspect of our relating to one another. It has also required being completely honest with each other about where we stand emotionally, and acknowledging when we're sitting on that "tipping point".

I don't think there's anything "wrong" with what you've gone through -- admittedly, it is difficult, but as long as you're honest and above board, and the other person is as well, then having to end a play relationship when the intensity leads in a direction that both parties aren't comfortable with isn't -wrong-... it is sensible.

Calla


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