quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Only if there's something wrong with owning part of a business.

If the tax system worked, rather than just milking the middle class, there wouldn't be all this loose money to play with.

If companies need to expand, they can get loans like the rest of us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkstar3167

Anyone who "invests" is doing long term investment.  Investment is not gambling.  It is making logical choices about facts.  Most people do not invest, because they do not know enough about the company to do so.  And, long term investment is the major portion of the stock market, which is evident in GDP increases along with consumption increase, this is because of the the life cycle model theory. 
Large investment firms utilize a number of methods, some which have been pointed to, but there is a great deal of emphasis placed on long term investment even in large companies.
And, no you cannot "create" money, only the interactions of the Treasury, Federal Reserve, and Banks can.

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ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

The stock market is no longer about investing in a business. Pretending it still is qualifies as naive at best.

I agree with the OP. Shuffling numbers in a rigged system has nothing to do with productivity. For every dollar made, a dollar is lost. Inflating the stock market to a zillion and beyond doesn't mean the economy is healthy, it just means the stock market is inflated to a zillion and beyond.

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ORIGINAL: heartcream

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkstar3167

Anyone who "invests" is doing long term investment.  Investment is not gambling.  It is making logical choices about facts.  Most people do not invest, because they do not know enough about the company to do so.  And, long term investment is the major portion of the stock market, which is evident in GDP increases along with consumption increase, this is because of the the life cycle model theory. 
Large investment firms utilize a number of methods, some which have been pointed to, but there is a great deal of emphasis placed on long term investment even in large companies.
And, no you cannot "create" money, only the interactions of the Treasury, Federal Reserve, and Banks can.

The folks who created the Federal Reserve are a tiny group of greedy men whose families have been gleaning the largest portion of the wealth to line their deranged pockets. These punks created the banks and Federal Reserve, strip them of this power and the thing comes toppling down where it belongs.

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ORIGINAL: servantforuse

You should do some research on the history of the stock market before making a dumb post. Without a market to invest in companies, there would be no companies. Money doesn't grow on trees.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So look at a company's fundamentals and make sound business decisions instead of trading.

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

You should do some research on the history of the stock market before making a dumb post. Without a market to invest in companies, there would be no companies. Money doesn't grow on trees.

Evidently you've read a fantasy posing as a history of the stock market. There have been and there currently are as we type, several million companies that have never had and will never have anything to do with stocks or their market.

The stock market does not serve society at large as we've seen. It never existed to obtain debt free financing of start-ups but for the original investors to get rich once one has gone public. From its beginning to the late 1890's the market had been made up of brokers who were predominantly 'market makers' who underwrote (original agreement to purchase and resell) stock offerings.

All of it including going public was almost totally among businessmen and without any real public money involved. When wall street lost money...it was their money. Little of the losses in 1929 was from the general public and even now the poorest 50% of the public own only 1% of all stocks. In fact, the general public didn't get into the stock market at any significant level until after WWII and really started with profit-sharing in the form of stock and profited only if it went up.

Now they leverage and lose our money...big time and wouldn't be nearly as valuable without it. I say make everybody go public over the net like Google did and fuck the NYSE.

Few get rich in the stock market without our retirement savings involved. Our retirement savings are very cleverly drawn by a tax incentive. The stock market as of its establishment has done nothing to serve the country but serves only insiders and the corporation with management greedily awarding themselves immense stock options.

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ORIGINAL: Silence8

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So look at a company's fundamentals and make sound business decisions instead of trading.

Yes, how quaint!

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ORIGINAL: darkstar3167

A. The United States money supply is controlled and regulated by the Federal Reserve, you can not create money through the stock market.  Inflation is only sustained if the money supply increase beyond its demand.
B. The Stock Market by definition is about buying and selling a piece of a corporation, and if you do not accept that and call it "naive" then you could never understand deep valuation, which is what long term investment is based on.
C. The Financial "crisis" did not stem from the stock market AT ALL.  Look into mortgaged back securities (bonds).
D. There is a difference between speculation and investment... One is a lot more likely to lose your money.
E. People lose money in the Markets through ignorance and misinformation.  I.e you can remove a lot of risk by vast diversification.  Or, do not put all your eggs in one basket.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkstar3167

Anyone who "invests" is doing long term investment.  Investment is not gambling.  It is making logical choices about facts.  Most people do not invest, because they do not know enough about the company to do so.  And, long term investment is the major portion of the stock market, which is evident in GDP increases along with consumption increase, this is because of the the life cycle model theory. 
Large investment firms utilize a number of methods, some which have been pointed to, but there is a great deal of emphasis placed on long term investment even in large companies.
And, no you cannot "create" money, only the interactions of the Treasury, Federal Reserve, and Banks can.

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkstar3167

Anyone who "invests" is doing long term investment.  Investment is not gambling.  It is making logical choices about facts.  Most people do not invest, because they do not know enough about the company to do so.  And, long term investment is the major portion of the stock market, which is evident in GDP increases along with consumption increase, this is because of the the life cycle model theory. 
Large investment firms utilize a number of methods, some which have been pointed to, but there is a great deal of emphasis placed on long term investment even in large companies.
And, no you cannot "create" money, only the interactions of the Treasury, Federal Reserve, and Banks can.

The folks who created the Federal Reserve are a tiny group of greedy men whose families have been gleaning the largest portion of the wealth to line their deranged pockets. These punks created the banks and Federal Reserve, strip them of this power and the thing comes toppling down where it belongs.

Alexander Hamilton created the federal reserve; he was born a bastard (dictionary definition, people) in Jamaica, and emigrated from Jamaica to the colonies near penniless.

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ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

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ORIGINAL: subtee

It can't work for everyone. It's capitalistic and therefore there must be losers.

Capitalism is not a zero sum game.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkstar3167

Anyone who "invests" is doing long term investment.  Investment is not gambling.  It is making logical choices about facts.  Most people do not invest, because they do not know enough about the company to do so.  And, long term investment is the major portion of the stock market, which is evident in GDP increases along with consumption increase, this is because of the the life cycle model theory. 
Large investment firms utilize a number of methods, some which have been pointed to, but there is a great deal of emphasis placed on long term investment even in large companies.
And, no you cannot "create" money, only the interactions of the Treasury, Federal Reserve, and Banks can.

The folks who created the Federal Reserve are a tiny group of greedy men whose families have been gleaning the largest portion of the wealth to line their deranged pockets. These punks created the banks and Federal Reserve, strip them of this power and the thing comes toppling down where it belongs.

Alexander Hamilton created the federal reserve; he was born a bastard (dictionary definition, people) in Jamaica, and emigrated from Jamaica to the colonies near penniless.

until he inherited a patroonship from non other than rothschild through marriage

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ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

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ORIGINAL: Silence8

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well then, perhaps you shouldn't invest...

[sigh] The profound weakness of this response speaks volume.

The point, of course, is that there should be no opportunities for anyone to create or hoard value, that everyone should have to contribute actual goods and services.

Making bets in a rigged game only destroys value.

Before the Great Crash, the rich were rampantly buying stocks at half price. I doubt the game is any better now, though perhaps the exploitation is mystified more, hidden behind intentional complexity.

Buying stocks at double price, you mean. Eat it, paranoiac.

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ORIGINAL: Silence8

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkstar3167

A. The United States money supply is controlled and regulated by the Federal Reserve, you can not create money through the stock market.  Inflation is only sustained if the money supply increase beyond its demand.
B. The Stock Market by definition is about buying and selling a piece of a corporation, and if you do not accept that and call it "naive" then you could never understand deep valuation, which is what long term investment is based on.
C. The Financial "crisis" did not stem from the stock market AT ALL.  Look into mortgaged back securities (bonds).
D. There is a difference between speculation and investment... One is a lot more likely to lose your money.
E. People lose money in the Markets through ignorance and misinformation.  I.e you can remove a lot of risk by vast diversification.  Or, do not put all your eggs in one basket.

There are, I think, some good points here.

The problem I have is with E -- the deliberate creation of misinformation creates a hole for the elites to multiply their surplus (excess, hence like shit) value, while the middle and lower classes have to deal with their money losing value due to inflation.

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ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

It can't work for everyone. It's capitalistic and therefore there must be losers.

Capitalism is not a zero sum game.

Let me explain this a bit.

If the total amount of money in the stock market were fixed, than you would be correct, subtee.  The only way that anyone could make money is if someone else loses it.

But the total amount is NOT constant.  The stocks are independent.  If Microsoft does something that results in it being worth more than it was, then all of its stockholders benefit.    Stock market booms are when the sum total value of stocks rise, and busts are when they collectively drop.

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ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So look at a company's fundamentals and make sound business decisions instead of trading.

Yes, how quaint!

Yet I'm sure you take his advice not to invest in the markets, since you don't understand how they function.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well then, perhaps you shouldn't invest...

[sigh] The profound weakness of this response speaks volume.

The point, of course, is that there should be no opportunities for anyone to create or hoard value, that everyone should have to contribute actual goods and services.

Making bets in a rigged game only destroys value.

Before the Great Crash, the rich were rampantly buying stocks at half price. I doubt the game is any better now, though perhaps the exploitation is mystified more, hidden behind intentional complexity.

Buying stocks at double price, you mean. Eat it, paranoiac.

No. Half price. This isn't contested, either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand
And don't forget that money = time, where time can be understood as efficiency, so that efficiency gains actually increase the amount of "wealth" in the world.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: realcoolhand
And don't forget that money = time, where time can be understood as efficiency, so that efficiency gains actually increase the amount of "wealth" in the world.

you mean value?