RE: Imagine there's no stock market...

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pahunkboy -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 5:15:05 AM)
I fired my peek a boo accounting stock market. I hoard silver.

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 5:25:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery 1) a sound business decision based on the company's fundamentals 2) a little diversification would have been wise. Ah, but the endeavor is exclusionary in its complications. Isn't it designed to be limiting? How would it work if it worked for everyone? OK, let's call this rule 3) Don't invest in things you don't understand. If people who should have known better had followed this rule instead of being blinded by greed, credit default swaps would have been DOA.

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 5:35:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven The stock market is one of the most brilliant creations of all time. Go to a socialist country. The government owns the means of production. Individual efforts are not rewarded because paper shuffling bureaucrats make decisions. In the United States in the early 20th century, robber barons ruled the roost because they and only they were able to afford to start up a business. In modern times, both Apple Computer and Microsoft were founded by college dropouts and were able to expand quickly by selling stock shares. The idea of a corporation (which is essentially a vehicle for selling stock) is that a company is able to raise cash relatively easily by selling stock, thus meaning that the bonds holding back capitalization are loosened considerably. Plus, a corporation is accountable to its stockholders - the fact that some guy with a 401K or some retiree with some shares of stock owns a chunk of a major company is mindblowing. I'm not going to pretend that there aren't abuses. But don't let's throw out the baby with the bath water. Exactly. I started as a struggling musician/writer in a terrible economy. It occurred to me early that to ever have any security in a capitalist system, I would need capital. Hell, that's how people like Carnegie did it. So I managed to take little bits, very, very little for a while, and set them aside to build capital. Today I live in the middle of a beautiful forest (which I own), with large orchards, vineyards, gardens, with good savings, a very healthy retirement fund, and live on just over half my income, saving/investing the rest. How the hell did that happen? Bit by bit, compounded. Without equal access to markets, only the wealthy would be able to invest in business. Stephen is right. It's a great country.

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 5:40:38 AM)
quote: 30+% since 2001 So that means for every 100 grand you lost 300,000 just for using the MM's concept money! Plus you get to pay taxes on the money when you try to recover your costs of inflation as capital gains. All incorrect. You made up the inflation number--grossly high (and yes, it was higher than Bush reported, but not this high, and even then, only if you bought the inflated items, as it was not across the board increases). Several times, I've pointed you to any basic economics text to clear up your money confusion. You never have, and apparently never intend to do so, so you will forever continue with your misunderstanding, laughing like a fool at all those who tell you. *The taxes part is not necessarily true. Investment in a 401k, for example, isn't taxed when it goes in, and is withdraw later in life, when the tax rates won't be on top of earned income. Additionally, investment in a Roth IRA accumulates tax free forever, even when withdrawn.

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 5:50:13 AM)
quote: The point, of course, is that there should be no opportunities for anyone to simply multiply value without providing actual goods and services. Making bets in a rigged game only destroys value. If the tax system worked, rather than just milking the middle class, there wouldn't be all this loose money to play with. If companies need to expand, they can get loans like the rest of us. Nonsense. Sure, there are traders, but they add liquidity to owning shares. That doesn't erase the very real production from the businesses themselves. Those who "make bets" have only themselves to blame. Diversified value investors will fare well over the long term. If you're not sure, go for a safer investment. Like buying a share in the corner store--check it out first, and if you're not sure, buy a share in a business you like better. The middle class is heavily invested in the stock market. It's one of the things fueling national well being, and it's one of the hallmarks of mid 20th century to present America that people are able to share in building wealth. Companies do get loans. They don't return as much, however (barring junk bonds). Stock is an opportunity to share in the profits (and potential losses) of the company. You could have loaned Apple cash, or you could have enjoyed sharing its success.

pahunkboy -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 5:50:59 AM)
Most of us tho are not as smart as Mr Fat Finger.

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 5:53:02 AM)
quote: The folks who created the Federal Reserve are a tiny group of greedy men whose families have been gleaning the largest portion of the wealth to line their deranged pockets. These punks created the banks Not even close. Congress created the Federal Reserve. Banks pre-existed it; the Fed oversees them and is funded by member banks.

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 6:00:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven If Microsoft does something that results in it being worth more than it was, then all of its stockholders benefit. Stock market booms are when the sum total value of stocks rise, and busts are when they collectively drop. And if manipulations occur because a few have knowledge or are actively manipulating knowledge, the same benefit happens. For a (relative) few. Conversely, if Microsoft makes a shitty product--imagine that--and the market, irrespective of stock in Microsoft-- recognizes and reacts to the shitty product , then they wouldn't have the inflated and, some say, monopoly that they and their shareholders enjoy. tee, you seem to postulate here the need for a perfect, guaranteed safe environment. Just like anything else, just like owning a share of the corner store, you aren't going to have perfect information, you aren't going to be able to trust everyone, and you can't ensure that all decisions and actions are the best ones. That doesn't mean you say fuck the store, it's all manipulation--you just stay aware and involved. Or put in charge a good manager and hold that person accountable.

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 6:04:55 AM)
quote: Few get rich in the stock market without our retirement savings involved. Our retirement savings are very cleverly drawn by a tax incentive. The stock market as of its establishment has done nothing to serve the country but serves only insiders and the corporation with management greedily awarding themselves immense stock options. "Rich" is a vague term; many save several hundred thousand dollars through retirement savings. Yes, the tax incentive helps. What's wrong with that? It increases the value of my investment by an immediate third. Corporate management practices are separate from the stock market per se. Here, yes, there are practices I would question. Shareholders can change this if they wish. Thing is, they seem to be fine as long as the profits continue.

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 6:08:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: realcoolhand quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery So look at a company's fundamentals and make sound business decisions instead of trading. Yes, how quaint! Yet I'm sure you take his advice not to invest in the markets, since you don't understand how they function. No, I'm referencing the fact that he's conjuring the mythology of the market, rather than the (arguably insane, and obviously not productive) reality. Well, if that's mythology, then you either know, are, or postulate some foolish investors. In my early 20s, needing living expenses while my career was just starting, I got a job first at a bank, then selling investments for a Wall St. firm. In half a year I was Sales Manager. All of my clients made money. Guess how.

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 6:15:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 The big issue, I'm wondering, isn't whether the stock market is increasingly geared toward big companies, with extremely expensive algorithmic devices, sucking the life out of any real technological advancement. The little guy in the stock market is increasingly at a disadvantage. The masses who have no time for this absurd game lose out even more. Wealth redistributes upwards (as it clearly has, since the 1970s). Politics swing right. Social programs go by the wayside. Meanwhile all goods and services go down in value, due to economic disadvantages inherent in economic inequality. You seem to think there is only one stock market, the NYSE, which yes, is for larger capitalizations. But smaller companies trading on the NASDAQ, for example, include small startups, even penny stocks. Wealth redistributed upwards for a number of reasons, primarily giving large, unpaid for tax cuts to the wealthy. What social programs have "gone by the wayside"? How do you figure "all goods and services go down in value"? We have had relatively low inflation and generally steady economic growth. I agree that growing economic inequality is a problem, but it's not because of the stock market in other than incidental ways.

Real0ne -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 6:16:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: 30+% since 2001 So that means for every 100 grand you lost 300,000 just for using the MM's concept money! Plus you get to pay taxes on the money when you try to recover your costs of inflation as capital gains. All incorrect. You made up the inflation number--grossly high (and yes, it was higher than Bush reported, but not this high, and even then, only if you bought the inflated items, as it was not across the board increases). Gold from 300 to 1200 and you want to kid us? Just because you can manage your accounts doesnt mean you have a clue how the monetary system works. Milk from 130 to over 4 bucks per gallon? How about a new car? How about gas? Same thing, buck fifty to over 4 bucks per gallon now high 2's to 3? You are living in your fantasy world if you think inflation is less than 30 percentl. Does that mean that every possible thing purchasable is up 30%? NO. Just everything important. Several times, I've pointed you to any basic economics text to clear up your money confusion. You never have, and apparently never intend to do so, so you will forever continue with your misunderstanding, laughing like a fool at all those who tell you. Several times you tried to hand me your economist bullshit no you have not mentioned any books etc and yes I will continue to laugh at how little you "really" know about money and take the word of the federal reserve over your alice in wonderland econonomists any day. . *The taxes part is not necessarily true. Investment in a 401k, for example, isn't taxed when it goes in, and is withdraw later in life, when the tax rates won't be on top of earned income. Additionally, investment in a Roth IRA accumulates tax free forever, even when withdrawn. You dont get it do you, and it so fucking simple. Just in case anyone is foolish enough to listen to you, your 401k is soft money and when the dollar devaluates your soft money, (investments) devaluate at the same rate. Your investments are not automatically adjusted for inflation. You can poke fun all you want I am have a gut blaster laugh on you.

Real0ne -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 6:22:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: The folks who created the Federal Reserve are a tiny group of greedy men whose families have been gleaning the largest portion of the wealth to line their deranged pockets. These punks created the banks Not even close. Congress created the Federal Reserve. Banks pre-existed it; the Fed oversees them and is funded by member banks. you stop short at member banks, and who do you think owns the member banks? LMAO one big happy family. The federal reserve was created to manage the bankruptcy as they moved us from money of exchange to money of account, (funny money) We were sold a bill of goods in fraud with the lie that they were created to "smooth" the dips and valleys and again that was a lie. Crash of 20, then 29, then again in 60's and now. All manufactured. you have immersed yourself in lies.

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 6:26:29 AM)
Actually it's you poking the fun. In lieu of good points, I might add. Gold and milk, that's your measure? Again, an arbitrary number and an arbitrary system. As for the rest--we're talking about economics. That you blow off economists and yet want to argue economics is just silly--especially as you've not convincing arguments, but ridicule. Even with your draconian fantasies, however, I think going from nothing to a few hundred thousand is a gain, even after taxes and inflation. Ironically, gold and silver are exactly the things others are assuming about the stock market. There you have an investment that doesn't produce, one with value dependent on outside forces and manipulations. While traditionally a hedge against inflation, it's also a risky investment, subject to falls as well as gains. And you're still taxed when you sell.

Real0ne -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 6:38:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Actually it's you poking the fun. In lieu of good points, I might add. Gold and milk, that's your measure? Again, an arbitrary number and an arbitrary system. Do I need to itemize everything in the world to get my point across? Just be sure you do the same then eh? As for the rest--we're talking about economics. That you blow off economists and yet want to argue economics is just silly--especially as you've not convincing arguments, but ridicule. I am talking about value, value now versus value then and directly making a comparison. What is so difficult for you to understand? Even with your draconian fantasies, however, I think going from nothing to a few hundred thousand is a gain, even after taxes and inflation. I never said or implied it wasnt now did I? It however does not mean you know shit about the monetary system. Ironically, gold and silver are exactly the things others are assuming about the stock market. There you have an investment that doesn't produce, one with value dependent on outside forces and manipulations. While traditionally a hedge against inflation, it's also a risky investment, subject to falls as well as gains. And you're still taxed when you sell. value is not an arbitrary system when one value is directly compared with the value of "money". Value changes very little, only prices change. Land today is not higher than than it was 200 years ago inflation adjusted. In other words your 20 dollars of silver certs you had in your pocket in 1933 would buy you an oz of gold and that same 20 silver certs (dollars) wont even buy you a look at a 20 dollar gold piece today. Price does not rise because the value rises it rises because the value (buying power) of your MONEY decreased. Granted value of the product may rise also but by comparison its negligible, say .01% compared to the devaluation of the dolla! I have no idea what fantasy land gauge you go by but an iq of 20 can see its lunacy. everything as in all transactions in the public is taxed. Its a transfer tax. You are renting the ability to use the corporate monetary system for your convenience and paying dearly through the nose for it and in addition by means of inflation tax. In addition to income and excise they take money out of your account through non-compensated inflation tax. In other words stealing your work and sweat equity behind the scenes because it is invisible to people like you who choose to "simply ignore it". you dont want to tell me that if I sell you a pet rock in private that its taxed are you?

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 6:55:54 AM)
None of this rambling has anything to do with the stock market--it's an exaggerated argument against holding anything at all of monetary value.

Real0ne -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 6:57:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery None of this rambling has anything to do with the stock market--it's an exaggerated argument against holding anything at all of monetary value. WTF? where the hell do you think your 401k is managed and traded in a shoe box? You say a lot of shit I both agree and disagree with on this board but that was absolutely absurd. ok here...think about it like this..... When the money has been inflated say 30% in one day by floating more notes into the public. Once money is inflated it tacks on to all soft assets and negotiable paper so what you sell from the stock market gains has lost that same amount of buying power because it was never compensated for the loss of value. You dont get an inflation adjustment on anything in the stock market!!! You will get a grossly lagging adjustment for wages and land etc several years up the road. Its that lag that fleeces the people of their wealth. Its so simple it escapes most people and that is why the monetary travesty continues and the debt keeps climbing. They forgot to tell you its a debt that can never be paid off and forces the last holder to be the loser. But to understand that you first need to understand the nature of money.

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 7:15:37 AM)
Again, quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery None of this rambling has anything to do with the stock market--it's an exaggerated argument against holding anything at all of monetary value.

Real0ne -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 7:21:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Again, quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery None of this rambling has anything to do with the stock market--it's an exaggerated argument against holding anything at all of monetary value. again its all negotiable paper and its connected at the hip. if you cant see that well its your academic (and mpnetary) loss and red face. enjoy

Musicmystery -> RE: Imagine there's no stock market... (6/4/2010 7:25:16 AM)
And yet again. Your exaggerated focus on taxes and inflation applies to anything denominated in dollars anyone chooses to hold. Even gold--when you sell it, it's taxed (legally, anyway) and the subsequent goods you buy will be at inflated prices. People buy gold hoping it will keep its value against inflation (which it does sometimes yes, sometimes no, rising and falling as do all commodities). This is actually an argument FOR the stock market--that bank savings account is not likely to keep pace.

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