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RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 7:34:31 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And yet again.

Your exaggerated focus on taxes and inflation applies to anything denominated in dollars anyone chooses to hold. Even gold--when you sell it, it's taxed (legally, anyway) and the subsequent goods you buy will be at inflated prices. People buy gold hoping it will keep its value against inflation (which it does sometimes yes, sometimes no, rising and falling as do all commodities).

This is actually an argument FOR the stock market--that bank savings account is not likely to keep pace.




thats only YOUR opinion of my focus which you have proven is highly questionable at this point.

I only used a bank savings to illustrate how you get less back from your investment by the evils of inflation for those who think they can just kick back and make money because they are getting some percentage of interest.

If I trade an OZ of gold for some chickens what do I pay the tax in?  Pigs?

We have the infinite right of contract and if it is my private contract who are you to come along and tax me?  Wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll unless of course the government owns the gold?

Now if they have title to all that gold then they in fact do have the authority to tax me.

Sure because the money people agreed to use and by doing so having become the enemy of the state is the money that everything is gauged against as a standard.  So of course you will trade a par amount of gold to the dolla.

So if we have to pay taxes on gold in the private sector who owns the gold?  Do you understand how that works?

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/4/2010 7:37:45 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 7:36:46 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		This is off topic--it's back to your standard reinterpretation of the law.

Legally, yes, you owe the taxes. Granted, they may be difficult to collect.

Even without that, barter has higher transaction costs than cash, and is unlikely to replace a more convenient monetary system.

But this is also off topic. In both cases, it has nothing to do with the stock market per se.

If you want to debate the monetary system yet again (or for that matter, a discussion of mineral rights), start yet another thread to do so.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/4/2010 7:44:11 AM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 7:43:25 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

This is off topic--it's back to your standard reinterpretation of the law.

Legally, yes, you owe the taxes. Granted, they may be difficult to collect.


The only reason you pay taxes on federal reserve notes is because you do not own them.

Meaning you can sit on a pile of 1 million of them and they are not yours.  They are the property of the federal reserve bank.

You do not own title to your home that is why you pay taxes on your home.  Dont waste your time babbling about a warranty deed.  If you understand what I am talking about you do not need to go there.

Problem is you do not understand what I am talking about that is why you think what I am saying does not apply.

Its not that I misinterpret the law its that you never understood it in the first place.  That being the case you are hanidcapped to the point helplessness to see any fraud perpetrated against you.

Its NOT off topic, you just fail to see the connection.




The monetary system and the stock market are one in the same.

You talk about barter which is trade and fail to see that the stock market is trade.

You claim transactions costs more to barter when the receipt is the hard goods and no paper need be produced.

why try to pretend it is not connected?  Its in essence one in the same.



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/4/2010 7:48:03 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 7:46:46 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Turn off the computer and go outside.

But don't hit on the waitress, people bitched about that yesterday.

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 7:49:52 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Turn off the computer and go outside.

But don't hit on the waitress, people bitched about that yesterday.


jeffffffffffffffffffffffffff

Please be sure to keep that pail over your head, the light out here is blinding and I would not want you to hurt yourself.





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 7:53:34 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		No, the problem is that you can't see it's irrelevant.

It changes nothing about the stock market, whether true or not.

If there's no system, then that system can't be manipulated. If everything is manipulation, a stock market piece of that is insignificant.

Nonetheless, within that system, people still prosper, even if on paper, and translate that to the real world. Simply a matter of experience.

Could it all fall? Sure, in theory. And if it does, again, the market piece would be insignificant to it, as all other savings would fall as well.

In daily life, it's irrational to function under conspiracy theory. Day to day, we work and prosper within the institutions we have. Laugh at them, mock them, attack them, have it at, but true or false, it won't change the day to day real experience of people.

Imagine everyone did nothing but hoard gold. The economy would stop. That would induce the situation the OP fears.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 7:55:06 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Turn off the computer and go outside.

I'm going to do exactly that. Right now.


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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 8:03:39 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No, the problem is that you can't see it's irrelevant.

It changes nothing about the stock market, whether true or not.

If there's no system, then that system can't be manipulated. If everything is manipulation, a stock market piece of that is insignificant.

Nonetheless, within that system, people still prosper, even if on paper, and translate that to the real world. Simply a matter of experience.

Could it all fall? Sure, in theory. And if it does, again, the market piece would be insignificant to it, as all other savings would fall as well.

In daily life, it's irrational to function under conspiracy theory. Day to day, we work and prosper within the institutions we have. Laugh at them, mock them, attack them, have it at, but true or false, it won't change the day to day real experience of people.

Imagine everyone did nothing but hoard gold. The economy would stop. That would induce the situation the OP fears.


WTF are you talking about?

Conspiracy theory?  The famous last words when your ass is backed into a corner so tight no amount razzle dazzle can save your sinking ass?

You just rubber stamped that you are a loser the second you sing conspiracy theory and racist etc.

Its not metaphysical either....

I wont argue that people do not prosper, but then that depends on where you draw the line on your definition of prosper.

Just because you want to write off the fraud that has been perpetrated on the people because you were able to make a living does not mean it does not exist and it does not mean you are not an enemy of the state.

You do not need to be a rocket scientist or even have a very high iq to understand twea and title 50.

It only shows you are guilty of promoting the fraud either knowingly or through some other vehicle denial maybe?  Most likely you made money through it so the fact its sucking the life blood out of this country is irrelevant to you.

It has nothing to do with hording gold.

Everyone loves to go to gold rather then properly address it in terns of specie.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 8:05:25 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		RO-  MM is a keynesien.   Let him eat cake. 

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 8:06:33 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		It has nothing to do with hording gold. /snip

if the dollar is as good as gold then that should not be a problem.

HOARD GOLD!

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 9:23:28 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No, the problem is that you can't see it's irrelevant.

It changes nothing about the stock market, whether true or not.

If there's no system, then that system can't be manipulated. If everything is manipulation, a stock market piece of that is insignificant.

Nonetheless, within that system, people still prosper, even if on paper, and translate that to the real world. Simply a matter of experience.

Could it all fall? Sure, in theory. And if it does, again, the market piece would be insignificant to it, as all other savings would fall as well.

In daily life, it's irrational to function under conspiracy theory. Day to day, we work and prosper within the institutions we have. Laugh at them, mock them, attack them, have it at, but true or false, it won't change the day to day real experience of people.

Imagine everyone did nothing but hoard gold. The economy would stop. That would induce the situation the OP fears.


WTF are you talking about?

Conspiracy theory?  The famous last words when your ass is backed into a corner so tight no amount razzle dazzle can save your sinking ass?

You just rubber stamped that you are a loser the second you sing conspiracy theory and racist etc.

Its not metaphysical either....

I wont argue that people do not prosper, but then that depends on where you draw the line on your definition of prosper.

Just because you want to write off the fraud that has been perpetrated on the people because you were able to make a living does not mean it does not exist and it does not mean you are not an enemy of the state.

You do not need to be a rocket scientist or even have a very high iq to understand twea and title 50.

It only shows you are guilty of promoting the fraud either knowingly or through some other vehicle denial maybe?  Most likely you made money through it so the fact its sucking the life blood out of this country is irrelevant to you.

It has nothing to do with hording gold.

Everyone loves to go to gold rather then properly address it in terns of specie.





Here this should shine a bit of light on the matter.

The top 2 are for you and the bottom one is for those who are really interested in the realities of the monetary/stock market system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOzR3UAyXao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G8RhMJ3xkQ

http://www.rayservers.com/images/ModernMoneyMechanics.pdf

Last time I checked the original version was taken down from their website, my guess is that they did not plan on everyone understanding what they were doing and had a rude awakening at how many did understand.  LOL  This is a summary of it and they will send you copies if you like.


I dont want to drift to far away from the stock market and its basis, money but we should take special note of the simultaneous increased inflation and increased unemployment.

The stock market is used to artificially drive prices up.

The evidence is that gas went to 4 bucks a gallon when usage was going down.

That should raise red flags in peoples minds.


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/4/2010 9:40:59 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 11:24:12 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Again, you are talking about the monetary system and manipulation by those with power.

Let's say we do away with the stock market, do away with the Fed, in fact, do away with money.

What would happen? First, liquidity of trade would drop and transaction costs would rise. People would find ways to facilitate their dealings and to store value, and those facilitations would become money, whether coffee beans, credits, salt, scrip, gold, shells, whatever. Loans would create money, people would trade their stakes, and we'd be back to a different version of the same institutions. It comes right back to the fundamentals of money and trade. And even then, people with more resources would have more power, and some would strive to abuse that power and to manipulate trade.

Nor am I troubled about the government's stake, from the Fed to my deed. I'm glad the government has a stake. If not, I'd have to defend all this myself, and before long, people would realize they could just come over and take what I've got. So, I'd have to hire my own army--but my land doesn't produce enough to support an army, so we'd have to go into the business of taking over other people's land too. Hell, I couldn't even be sure my own men wouldn't turn on me--I'd have to quickly become a ruthless warlord, and since there's always a bigger army, I'd have to form alliances with other landlords, and our agreements would become government.

But because the government has a stake, it backs my property rights. I can expect police and even military protection. I can expect the rights to my music and writing. I can expect recourse in the courts. I can also expect the currency to be backed, even if only paper notes and accounting ledgers. Comes back to the fundamentals of government and economics.


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 11:30:18 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		MM-  is is like being given paper roses, eating a paper dinner, drinking paper wine, dancing with paper, having paper heat, and the yard is paper grass and trees.

Why is that hard to understand?

Many of us will never be lawyer enough to navigate your keynes world.

Some of us- realize that as a kid the silver content in the money backed the money- which is not the case today.

I am glad others will take my worthless paper dollars- as I then can stack silver. and I do stack silver.   In 1980 1000 ounces bought a house-, 500 oz will buy a house at some point in the next decade.

All fiat currencies crash.  That is history and you being educated of all people would know that history repeats.

So why the refusal to color paper as being PAPER?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 11:36:08 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		No, the misunderstanding is yours. Of course money is paper.

What you don't understand is that it serves the same purpose, and if we went back to gold and silver, nothing would change except a free lunch for the arbitragers.

As for the Keynesian prattle, you have no idea about my positions.

You also have no idea about either money or currency. A $5 silver certificate, then or now, is worth $5 in silver at market prices. It's absolutely no different than a $5 note. You're going to wind up with the ability to purchase $5 worth of goods. The only difference between then and now is that today you would get a smaller pile of silver for it. Not a hedge at all.

Highly inflated currencies crash historically, not fiat currencies per se. Gold backed ones can crash too when the official backing is different than the true market evaluation and can seriously threaten a currency. Twice, the Bank of England was brought to its knees over just such attacks, forcing the government to buy back its own currency and devalue it further at the same time. It's why Bretton Woods ties to gold were severed.

Trade and production back currency. From there, it just doesn't matter what the currency might be.

Milton Friedman was right on this one--inflation is always a monetary problem.

Incidentally, this is similar to why stock markets crash: we didn't suddenly have less productive companies with fewer assets; we had unreasonable expectations and exaggerated valuations brought back down to earth. Paying attention to a stock's real value will keep one out of such messes.

So, too, we allow a managed float to the dollar--if we didn't, we'd be subject to abrupt changes. Remember the 70s?

And incidentally, the stock market, historically, outpaces gold investment. Gold doesn't produce; you can only trade on upswings to realize a profit (unlike stock investments, where I can realize dividends and reinvestment along the way, making money by having more shares even when share prices drop).

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/4/2010 11:47:58 AM >

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 11:47:51 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I own a $1 silver certificate.  How do I get my silver?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 11:48:40 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Go to the Federal Reserve bank. Seriously. They will give you $1 worth of silver.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 11:50:42 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		In March 1964, Secretary of the Treasury C. Douglas Dillon halted redemption of Silver Certificates for Silver Dollars. In the 1970s, large numbers of the remaining silver dollars in the mint vaults were sold to the collecting public for collector value. All redemption in silver ceased on June 24, 1968./snip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Certificate

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 11:54:55 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		You'll just have to buy the silver yourself then.

You'll still get $1 worth.

That's what you two don't understand--it makes absolutely no difference.

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 11:56:04 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Should have bought it in the 70's

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Imagine there's no stock market... - 6/4/2010 12:01:04 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You'll just have to buy the silver yourself then.

You'll still get $1 worth.

That's what you two don't understand--it makes absolutely no difference.


The dental filling I got the other day is not made out of paper.  Is is made of silver.

So basically- silver/gold bugs- who choose real assets over paper are WRONG?

Nevermind that most people LOSE money in the rigged stock market. 

So- being that I choose to keep my wealth by skipping the paper stock market-- then I am ? wrong?

The market can fat finger drop and my stack remains.

For someone who thinks, MM, you are so reasonable- I cant see the logic.  Precious metals have 6000 years behind them.  Where as the stock market is smoke and mirrors.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 120
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