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ORIGINAL: subtee

Stock market!

STOMP!

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ORIGINAL: subtee

I've been ruminating about this quite a bit lately. Many of us are stung by the dismal economy, relentlessly trickling down it's hardships on people who work hard and expect relatively little. The markets, however, have given much to those who produce nothing, give back nothing, and, seemingly, help not at all in dire times. Instead, when they hurt we bail them out because we fear the consequences of their demise, at the expense of our own.

It's a shell game, isn't it? With those who best know how to manipulate from greed do the best. Where's the good?

How does it seem to you?

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

I've been ruminating about this quite a bit lately. Many of us are stung by the dismal economy, relentlessly trickling down it's hardships on people who work hard and expect relatively little. The markets, however, have given much to those who produce nothing, give back nothing, and, seemingly, help not at all in dire times. Instead, when they hurt we bail them out because we fear the consequences of their demise, at the expense of our own.

It's a shell game, isn't it? With those who best know how to manipulate from greed do the best. Where's the good?

How does it seem to you?

Initially the stock markets just invested in the exchange of goods. I would guess there were dodgy ventures whioch fleeced investors even then. The move to the futures markets, the futre value oof stock, then opened the way to speculation. While the men behind the markets have devised more ways to make money, the public and the financial investors have been happy to collect high dividends in the good times. Investors, brokers and the market manipulators have all played the system, and been more than happy to do so in the boom times. Much of the blame lies in deregulation, or a lack of stringent enforcement of current regulations.

So what is the answer ?  If we did away with stock markets and shares, how would major companies get funding ? The banks surely wont take large risks. Public money isnt the answer either, so that only leaves the current set up, with proper regulation and enforcement. When all is said and done, no one is forced to invest in anything.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It gets worse. That $50 adjusted for inflation is $128.50 (and much, much higher if you use Real's 30%+) -- you'd have lost 85% of your investment. Oh, the pile would still be shiny, but it's valuation and purchasing power would be a fraction of what you had put into it.

And why? Yes, the silver market has its manipulators, in the form this time of an attempt to corner the market. As for fat fingers, commodities are also traded via electronic means, and exactly the same thing could happen.

Gold tells a similar story. Whether nominally or adjusted for inflation, that 1980 investment would have lost a bundle. Security in hard metals is a myth--commodity trading can be volatile. In both cases, silver and gold, you STILL wouldn't be anywhere near recapturing your losses thirty years later.

[image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Historical_price_of_gold.png[/image]

And yes, both silver and gold have industrial uses, but holding it produces nothing--unlike stocks.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

People lose money in commodities markets, too--silver went from $50 an ounce in 1980 to $17.36 today.

And I'll bet you paid for that filling with--paper.

People who invest sanely in the stock market don't experience the same fate as the gamblers.

what the fuck does the dow have to do with silver?

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No, the problem is that you can't see it's irrelevant.

It changes nothing about the stock market, whether true or not.

If there's no system, then that system can't be manipulated. If everything is manipulation, a stock market piece of that is insignificant.

Nonetheless, within that system, people still prosper, even if on paper, and translate that to the real world. Simply a matter of experience.

Could it all fall? Sure, in theory. And if it does, again, the market piece would be insignificant to it, as all other savings would fall as well.

In daily life, it's irrational to function under conspiracy theory. Day to day, we work and prosper within the institutions we have. Laugh at them, mock them, attack them, have it at, but true or false, it won't change the day to day real experience of people.

Imagine everyone did nothing but hoard gold. The economy would stop. That would induce the situation the OP fears.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No, the problem is that you can't see it's irrelevant.

It changes nothing about the stock market, whether true or not.

If there's no system, then that system can't be manipulated. If everything is manipulation, a stock market piece of that is insignificant.

Nonetheless, within that system, people still prosper, even if on paper, and translate that to the real world. Simply a matter of experience.

Could it all fall? Sure, in theory. And if it does, again, the market piece would be insignificant to it, as all other savings would fall as well.

In daily life, it's irrational to function under conspiracy theory. Day to day, we work and prosper within the institutions we have. Laugh at them, mock them, attack them, have it at, but true or false, it won't change the day to day real experience of people.

Imagine everyone did nothing but hoard gold. The economy would stop. That would induce the situation the OP fears.

get it through your thick skull already, it has not a damn thing to do with conspiracy let alone a damn theory.

You cannot PAY a debt with a fucking debt.

Are you daft?  51 short of a full deck? 

What the hell is so difficult.  Do a little home work so you dont look like such a dumb ass on the matter.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne


Its not what you can do with it "after" the conveyance of tender.

Its what you tender eith that determines status.

Unfortunately I do not have the information handy but I did find this much on it.

frns are a promissorry note to pay, it does not have intrinsic value that gold does.

when you get it, it is NOT your property, you are only renting it to use for exchange.

Paying with a debt note is only discharges it into the future  and relieves you of the obligation but leaves a faulty title paying an asset is quid pro guo and completely "pays" the debt and it no longer exists in any form there fore you have allodial title.