RE: Free heroin gives good results

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thompsonx -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 1:15:42 PM)
quote: The person making the claim should be the one to provide the supporting evidence. To tell others that it is up to them to research supporting evidence for your claim is illogical. If I were to post that there is an uncontrolled oil spill in the gulf of mexico would you demand I document it or would you be capable of doing that on your own? But I had a litle bit of time on my hands so I googled and googled and could find not one article that supported your claim that doctors and nurses are the #1 abusers of opiates. Less than fifty minutes seperate the two posts. Perhaps your concept of a little research is different than mine. There was a Harvard psychiatry study that suggested that physicians are far less likely to abuse illicit drugs. Why would a doctor or other health care professional use illicit drugs when they have access to pharmaceutical? This is what I mean when I suggest that you are not entering into this discussion as an adult but rather as a snarky way to find something ....anything you can claim I was wrong about. But that they are 5 times as likely to abuse prescription drugs. Since the study did not elaborate on what drugs these were, it would be irresponsible to assume they were in fact opiates. So you would not want to be irresponsible and assume that they would steal drugs that could be obtained legally....more of your puerile nonsense. Therefore it would be also irrisponsible to claim that doctors and nurses comprise the largest group of opiate abusers. You want to win this then you can go do the happy dance and tell eveyone how slick you are. I can tell you an easy way. Just point out that there are more than three hundred million people in the u.s. and that about one and a half percent of them have admitted to having used opiats. Since there are less than about a million doctors and nurses in the u.s. it would be reasonable to assume that more than half of the doctors and nurses are not abusing opiats. Now do you want to hang your hat on that or would you consider your own research which indicates that percentage wise doctors not including nurses and other health care professionals abuse perscription drugs at a rate five times higher than the general population? Your answer here will tell you whether you are interested in snark or discussion.

thompsonx -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 1:19:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 [8\|] You or anyone else may chide me for what I say but I have no need to defend myself against something I did not say. I am not chiding you. I am simply not going to play a word game with you. I stated my opinions on giving a drug addict drugs to soothe his habit and you wondered why I said that. I said that because I don't believe making 2 wrongs is a right. You said that was a moral judgement on my part. Maybeso. I am morally against giving it for the reasons I said. Two wrongs do not make a right and it is wrong to contribute to the habit of a drug user. Nobody is asking you (at least I am not asking you to defend yourself against something you did not say). In fact, I have very little of a clue what you are really trying to say. Are you for giving heroin to a heroin addict, or arent you? You seem to want to criticize people who are against feeding into their habit. Without solidly giving your stance, your want to criticize that does lead me to believe you may be for it. But unless you say more than "What we're doing now isn't working", than I have no idea what you mean. I can only guess going by your reactions to what people say. My position is quite clear and is posted in unambiguous language.

thompsonx -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 1:23:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gman992 That's because it kills all those people who overdoes on it...fine by me...less losers in the world to take care...and crack/cocaine not addictive? Your ignorance is underwhelming. Go look in the pdr and it will tell you that there is no ld 50 for heroin or cocaine. It will tell you that heroin is physically addictive. It will tell you that cocaine is not physically addictive. Tell that to all of those people who lost their fortunes, homes, wives, husbands, etc...that it isn't addictive...no doubt the person who wrote that article was high.... High or not they obviously know more about drugs and drug addiction than you.

kdsub -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 2:03:39 PM)
I have read other studies where this experiment did not reduce the cost of government. The plan, if I read right, was to trade free heroin for reduction in crime requiring fewer police and lower medical costs. It has not worked. The cost of supply and the clinics to distribute it have offset gains in fewer police. Besides this the number of users has dramatically increased because without help many users were dieing, that is not the case under the program. Medical costs have continued to rise because of the deadly effects of the drug. Myself supplying drug abusers no matter how humane is doomed to failure. I will see if I can find the link but it has been awhile back. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 2:12:20 PM)
Even with pure Heroin administered regularly the conditions below can and do develop. Chronic users may develop collapsed veins, infection of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulites, and liver disease. Pulmonary complications, including various types of pneumonia, may result from the poor health condition of the abuser, as well as from heroin's depressing effects on respiration .With regular heroin use, tolerance develops. This means the abuser must use more heroin to achieve the same intensity or effect. Butch

Louve00 -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 2:37:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx My position is quite clear and is posted in unambiguous language. Since the only position (not criticism or argument that was on a side tangent) I have heard you say was "What we're doing now isn't working"...in fact, when I paste what you actually it said was..."I am in favor of pragmatic sanctions that work. What we are doing now clearly is not working." That gives me NO position. Only an opinion without a solution. Its not even a remark about the OP. As I said, I'm not into playing word games with you. I haven't a clue where you stand. All I know is who you're choosing to criticize.

thompsonx -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 3:17:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Even with pure Heroin administered regularly the conditions below can and do develop. Chronic users may develop collapsed veins, infection of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulites, and liver disease. Pulmonary complications, including various types of pneumonia, may result from the poor health condition of the abuser, as well as from heroin's depressing effects on respiration .With regular heroin use, tolerance develops. This means the abuser must use more heroin to achieve the same intensity or effect. Butch And that is only the tip of the iceberg. If you want a good read on the dibilliting effects of heroin read Andrew Wiell "from chocolate to morphine"

kiwisub12 -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 3:19:43 PM)
I saw a documentary of a study done in England several years ago, that suggest giving addicts clean heroin and needles eliminated the illnesses associated with heroin cut with weird stuff. If the addicts weren't ill, and high or down they could work, and apparently several of the addicts in the study did just that. They got jobs and supported their families, where before that, they were sick, unemployeed and their families were ........ They got enough heroin to prevent withdrawl and not enough to make them high. It was more for the ones who wanted to quit but weren't physically able. It made sense to me that the costs entailed in the care of the addicts was less than the cost to the health system and police systems of said addict high and stealing and sick. Just to be clear, the heroin was going to established addicts. [:)]

Elisabella -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 4:27:10 PM)
1. Crack is NOT the "purest form of cocaine" - crack cocaine is made by combining cocaine with baking soda. Which means no matter how pure the cocaine was to start off with, it's going to by default be LESS pure when base is added. Fucking duh l2chemistry. 2. Saying doctors and nurses are the most addicted to opiates, even if that's true, doesn't contradict the fact that for heroin users, they usually spend more on heroin than anything else. The category "opiates" includes things like vicodin, codeine (legal to buy OTC in many countries), oxy, morphine, methadone, suboxone, etc. Heroin is a specific opiate. It's like if I said "chihuahuas are small" and you replied "no, most dogs are big." Even if it's true it's utterly irrelevant. 3. I think all drugs should be legal, I don't think they should be free. If people want to do dumbass things to their body let them - there are enough userpics here of people strung up, bruised, and wearing 100 needles in a decorative pattern in their skin to make me wonder why anyone on this site would want to restrict someone from doing dumbass shit to their body because they enjoy it.

calamitysandra -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 4:29:11 PM)
Caveat at the outset: I can only talk about the German programs, I have no extensive knowledge about tests run in other countries. First of all, you need to understand which group of people are even eligible for such programs. We are only talking about those addicts who already hit rock bottom and have begun digging a long while ago. They usually have a long history of addiction and failed therapies and detoxes galore. Not even Methadone helps them, as it only relieves the withdrawal symptoms, but gives no high. The likelihood that this men an woman will ever be able to be free of their addiction is microscopic, nearly nonexistent. Now, at this point, knowing that you have a group of people, who will never beat their addiction, society could look away. Let them deal with it on their own. However, while society might well be able to ignore the suffering of the addicts, it will feel the repercussions that come hand in hand with this decision. Drug-related crime, illnesses from cut drugs, unclean needles, malnutrition and other illnesses from neglect while on the hunt for the next fix, welfare aid, eventually in addition aid for families who lost a breadwinner, all those and more take a toll on society. Or, we can get pro active. Knowing that this people will always need heroin, and also knowing what letting them fend for themselves does to society, not even to speak about what it does to them, we can decide to give them what they need. By handing out heroin, and providing a safe place to use, as well as clean needles, and doctors oversight, we can eliminate many of the problems above. In fact, we might even gain a at least partially productive member of society back. It really is important to be absolutely clear on the point, that this is a last resort only. As long as there is some hope left to beat the addiction, those are the ways that are, and will be tried. But I honestly think that programs like this are a godsend for those for whom all other hope is lost.

thompsonx -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 4:37:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx My position is quite clear and is posted in unambiguous language. Since the only position (not criticism or argument that was on a side tangent) I have heard you say was "What we're doing now isn't working"...in fact, when I paste what you actually it said was..."I am in favor of pragmatic sanctions that work. What we are doing now clearly is not working." That gives me NO position. Only an opinion without a solution. Its not even a remark about the OP. As I said, I'm not into playing word games with you. I haven't a clue where you stand. All I know is who you're choosing to criticize. I am sorry for any confusion...I have posted this rant several dozen times and I had thought it was pretty well known by now. I believe that all drugs should be made legal and who ever wants to stuff peanut butter or anything else into a number two syringe and slam chunky into their carotid artery should be allowed to do so. I believe that those who do drugs will not stop because it is illegal and I believe that those who do not do drugs will not start because they are legal. I believe that parents should raise their own children. Responsible parents do not let their children get drunk or engage in life threatning activity. That there are irresponsible parents is obvious and cps usually but not always have ways to deal with those fools. Making drugs illegal does only one thing...it employs the marginally employable... cops,prosecutors,defense attourneys, judges,bailiffs and correctional personal as well as the contractors and builders of prisons. Something like 70% of the people in custody in this country are in custody on drug related charges. Just imagine if that load was reduced by 70% then we would have more cops to protect us from real criminals, and more prison space to lock the real criminals up. Do you believe that the civil calender would not be shortened if the criminal docket was not swamped with drug offenders? end of rant[:D]

thompsonx -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 4:52:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella 1. Crack is NOT the "purest form of cocaine" - crack cocaine is made by combining cocaine with baking soda. Which means no matter how pure the cocaine was to start off with, it's going to by default be LESS pure when base is added. Fucking duh l2chemistry. Had you ever taken "fucking duh chemistry" you would not say such ignorant things. Do a little research. Crack cocaine and free base are the same product arrived at by different processes and that process extracts all of the cut from the powder cocaine and changes it to a smokable form. Powder cocaine is not smokable...well you can but it is a waste of coke. Google is your friend here do a little research. 2. Saying doctors and nurses are the most addicted to opiates, even if that's true, doesn't contradict the fact that for heroin users, they usually spend more on heroin than anything else. I did not say they didnt...my point was that health care professionals use opiats at a much higher rate than the general population, and they do not resort to sticking up the corner gas station to make a fix. The category "opiates" includes things like vicodin, codeine (legal to buy OTC in many countries), oxy, morphine, methadone, suboxone, etc. Heroin is a specific opiate. It's like if I said "chihuahuas are small" and you replied "no, most dogs are big." Even if it's true it's utterly irrelevant. ?????????????? 3. I think all drugs should be legal, Me too I don't think they should be free. Legal opiats are a fraction of a single digit percentage of the cost of illicit opiats If people want to do dumbass things to their body let them - there are enough userpics here of people strung up, bruised, and wearing 100 needles in a decorative pattern in their skin to make me wonder why anyone on this site would want to restrict someone from doing dumbass shit to their body because they enjoy it. I do not find it difficult at all to agree with you on this point.[:D]

Louve00 -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 4:59:17 PM)
Thompson. You condescend to people who aren't clear, when you yourself don't make yourself clear, and (in this thread) have not stated the above til......well, just now. In fact, we agree. Why you chose to ask me "why" to a question you as well relate to in much the same way I do (and I also incorporate the health hazards that a drug addict will ignore while searching for his next high, or attempting to get there), I don't know. But now I can quit worrying (although, I was never really worried, but just interested in the way you were debating with me), I can quit thinking you'd be willing to trash a life, just to make yours more enjoyable. Me thinks, you just like to argue...sometimes to a fault. But there is nothing wrong with that. I suppose thats what forums are about. Carry on! [;)]

Elisabella -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 5:00:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Had you ever taken "fucking duh chemistry" you would not say such ignorant things. Do a little research. Crack cocaine and free base are the same product arrived at by different processes and that process extracts all of the cut from the powder cocaine and changes it to a smokable form. Powder cocaine is not smokable...well you can but it is a waste of coke. Google is your friend here do a little research. First off, that process does NOT extract all the cut from the cocaine: Because of the dangers for manufacturers of using ether to produce pure freebase cocaine, producers began to omit the step of removing the freebase precipitate from the ammonia mixture. Typically, filtration processes are also omitted. The end result is that the cut, in addition to the ammonium salt (NH4Cl), remains in the freebase cocaine after the mixture has evaporated. The "rock" that is thus formed also contains a small amount of water. So if you're trying to say that crack cocaine might contain higher levels of cocaine than some commercial grade powder cocaine, I'd agree, but there are no standards here. I'd be willing to bet coke against vodka that the stuff snorted in Hollywood has more cocaine content than the rocks sold on the block. Which is why the one crackhead I knew back in the day would buy coke and cook it herself. Fucking weirdo but I guess it worked for her. quote: I did not say they didnt...my point was that health care professionals use opiats at a much higher rate than the general population, and they do not resort to sticking up the corner gas station to make a fix. Exactly, same with alcoholics. If using drugs is a criminal activity, it means that anyone who wants to use drugs will have to associate with criminals and come to terms with breaking the law. It's a slippery slope from there. Heroin bought on the street is fucking expensive. Another reason I think it should be legal.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 5:13:26 PM)
Hm, perhaps if my ex-husband could have had his drugs for free he might not have spent 60,000 in six months on crack. He might not have cost me my house and credit. And maybe, just maybe he could have used and abused to his hearts content and died happy, or least died. Oh joy. What a wonderful world that would have been. Sadly, he didn't have the option of free drugs for his addiction, and the son of a bitch is still alive and unwell since he can't afford his habit now in the same manner he was accustomed to. Who knew a crack-addict could survive this long. He even pulled out of the drug induced coma he put himself in. Jackass. (in case the sarcasm wasn't glaringly apparent, the above was posted dripping with it.) WinD

Aynne88 -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 5:16:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse Good idea. A generation lost, with the drugs supplied by the government. What do you do with all of the addicts once they are hooked on heroine ? Perhaps if you were to educate yourself about the subject before you ran off at the mouth, about that of which you have no clue, you might make some meaningful contribution to this discussion. Cocaine is not physically addictive. http://www.erowid.org/

Louve00 -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 5:32:03 PM)
Having the privilege of living in a not so good neighborhood and also worked in a hospital and was often in code situations and cared for surviving drug addicts afterwards, I know well the devastation of the family and the harmful outcome of a drug addicts carelessness. I think I posted this story somewhere on this forum, or maybe it was another but my neighbors sisters was addicted to crack cocaine. As she sat on her front porch smoking it she stroked. She didn't know she stroked and continued to smoke it til someone came up to her porch...saw her covered in fire ants...and that she was sick...and called 911. She (a woman in her 40's) lives in a nursing home, now. I doubt there is an effective way to stop someone from taking whatever it is they want. People drink alcohol, smoke cigarrettes, do drugs...and probably things I don't even know about (or want to know about either [8D]). I know when a person becomes an addict, he drops the ball and usually another family member has to pick up his ball as well as manage their own ball. Its not fair on the people that have to deal with it. But giving their loved ones more drugs, to sustain their habit...even if it is so they can go out and work doesn't solve anything. It just keeps an addict an addict, it shortens his life, and his family will soon enough be hurting without him anyway. I quit smoking. I met a girl on these very forums that was in so much pain from a disease she has that she became seriously addicted to morphine and many, many other drugs, too. It was hard on her, but she is working on ridding herself of those habits (and succeeding). I seriously think its in the drive of the person and the determination of the person. Giving them a free high gives them no drive or determination. Just a way to sustain their habits. [sm=2cents.gif] And I'm sorry for your losses and the pain it caused you WinsomeDefiance.

thompsonx -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 5:35:46 PM)
http://health.howstuffworks.com/crack2.htm http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/coc05.htm I think these two sites are better than the wiki you posted. But... The one that Aynne posted is the one I was looking for and is far more detailed. I have a new computer and have not been able to extract all of my data from my old computer. my point about crack being the purest form of cocaine takes into account that while it may only be 90% it does not lead to something like richard prior running down the street on fire from free base. On a related note it is my considered opinion that cocaine is mother natures way of telling you that you make too much money.

Aynne88 -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 5:37:25 PM)
That. I love you Thompson ;)

thompsonx -> RE: Free heroin gives good results (6/4/2010 5:37:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aynne88 quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse Good idea. A generation lost, with the drugs supplied by the government. What do you do with all of the addicts once they are hooked on heroine ? Perhaps if you were to educate yourself about the subject before you ran off at the mouth, about that of which you have no clue, you might make some meaningful contribution to this discussion. Cocaine is not physically addictive. http://www.erowid.org/ That was the link I was searching for. I had lost it when I got this new computer. Thank you.

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