RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (Full Version)

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laurell3 -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 5:28:22 AM)

The fact that a prosecution isn't successful doesn't make it a false arrest.

The question isn't whether one could come up with defenses that may or may not fly, it's whether the activity is unlawful. Under most states laws, it is unlawful. A case being "kicked" isn't really helpful when you've been outted, lost your job and all the other ramifications that would follow an arrest. Nor does the number of cases that aren't prosecuted any type of rational argument for the premise that the activity is lawful.

It is a risk. There are multiple laws, assault is only one of them that may or may not apply to wiitwd. Be careful and be discreet. It really is that simple.

There are cases where people were arrested. They've been rather highly publicized. I can't tell you the names of them. Again, there's a wealth of information out there from the national organizations that are combating this very issue. It isn't because there are no arrests. It isn't because it's lawful. It's because there are arrests and potential for arrests because this activity is not protected and they argue it should be as you do. I believe one of those is the Leather Association. It's been awhile since I've looked at it, so I don't recall, sorry.

I linked that boy george arrest because I found it humorous as I said. I wouldn't presume to have any clue what the laws are in London.






RedMagic1 -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 5:32:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
There are cases where people were arrested. They've been rather highly publicized. I can't tell you the names of them.

http://www.evilmonk.org/a/law00.cfm#cases

Starting point.



laurell3 -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 5:37:50 AM)

Jovanic was overturned due to an improper ruling after arrest and succesful prosecution and a 15 year sentence. He served 20 months in prison. The prosecutor declined to refile because the victim was reluctant to testify again. The ruling had nothing to do with consent. The court failed to apply the rape shield law properly and failed to allow the defense evidence of emails. The guy was charged with multiple counts including kidnapping, sexual abuse and assault.

There's your case. You cited it.

Again, there are risks people. Avoid them and it's not an issue.



LadyCimarron -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 5:38:44 AM)

I didn't say it was lawful, I said that it was not unlawful. Which means there is no actual law restricting these activities. And yes I know that not getting a prosecution does not mean the arrest was false. I was only mentioning that arrests happen sometimes even though a person has done nothing legally wrong. Often it is a judgment call by the officer. I agree with the issues of being outed.

But our fear of being outed is not what I was addressing I was addressing the legality of WIITWD. So far every arrest I have found has been either for prostitution (charging for the services) or because a sub later said it was nonconsenual or that she consented out of personal fear for her well being.

My only point is that this is very telling about our lifestyle. We often say "most of what we do is illegal" this statement is inaccurate. We actually have a little more protection than we often perceive that we do. Just because our behavior may be frowned upon in society; and we are often looked down upon, does not mean we are committing a crime.



GreedyTop -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 5:39:06 AM)

~FR~

There does not always have to be VISIBLE evidence of abuse (bruises, prior calls, etc.) for an arrest.  In many states, all it takes is the complianants word. 



LadyCimarron -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 5:41:43 AM)

My point in people v jovanovic was that it was still one person accusing the other. There are still no cases of 2 consenting adults being arrested and sentenced over bdsm activities.



AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 5:44:22 AM)

Of all 50 states NONE of them have any laws Protecting CONSENTUAL BATTERY or CONSENTUAL ASSULT. Meaning If you HIT someone with SOMETHING you have potentially broken a law. However in order to be arrected for that specific act it must be witnessed by the arresting officer or reported by a reliable source that can back it up in a court of law.

In Domestic Violence most states (Guessing it's at least 40 or more) If the police officer comes into a situation and sees any signs of violence. Bruises, Or Scrapes the officer can make an arrest even if the other partner does not wish to file charges as it can be argued that she is protecting him out of fear for her own well being.

Two very close friends of mine had this happen in 07' and the state of Nevada tried to prosecute him to the nines. In the end it was a professional psychiatrist that came to the rescue when he testified that she showed no signs of mental distress from abuse of any kind and that after 3 sessions showed no signs of trying to protect him or minimalize what had happened.

The Cops showed up because a neighbor heard the Crop being used and thought he was whiping his girl with a belt.

What we do in S&M is not Legal.
What we do in B&D can be legal as long as consent is defined before either bondage or Discipline is delivered.

Few Kinks or Fetishes are classified as Illegal and Sodomy is easily defended against in a court of law.

QSM



LadyCimarron -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 5:44:38 AM)

Thanks Red. it would seem the cases listed at that link were either arrests made for prostitution (charging money) or a victim saying it was non consensual.



laurell3 -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 5:51:27 AM)

QSM,

I do agree on the sodomy thing. It would never withstand a consitutional challenge. It's unconsitutional as applied unless you know of some state that actually enforces it routinely.



LadyCimarron -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 5:58:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

Of all 50 states NONE of them have any laws Protecting CONSENTUAL BATTERY or CONSENTUAL ASSULT. Meaning If you HIT someone with SOMETHING you have potentially broken a law. However in order to be arrected for that specific act it must be witnessed by the arresting officer or reported by a reliable source that can back it up in a court of law.

What we do in S&M is not Legal.
What we do in B&D can be legal as long as consent is defined before either bondage or Discipline is delivered.

Few Kinks or Fetishes are classified as Illegal and Sodomy is easily defended against in a court of law.

QSM


Thank you. This was part of the point I was making. Anytime we hit  another person it could "potentially" be construed as an assault. The circumstances of the situation is what will determine whether or not there is an arrest and conviction.

So if we say "Most of WIITWD is illegal" we can also say Most of every contact we have with other people is illegal. There are no laws on the books (in the US) regarding BDSM. Police and local officials can either narrowly or broadly define assault and battery laws to either include or not include kinksters or any other type of hitting. But other than prostitution and allegtions of non-consent there would seemingly be no cases of this.....so far.



thishereboi -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 6:05:43 AM)

fr
"Reed was charged with assault after she was accused of paddling the buttocks of another woman who was strapped to a table during the party. Police said that according to state law, a person cannot consent to being assaulted, even for sexual pleasure."

http://www.boston.com/news/daily/21/paddling.htm



laurell3 -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 6:13:48 AM)

http://www.montrosepress.com/articles/2009/07/02/news/doc4a4c4d8159b6f991630537.txt

Here's one where there's actually a contract and it IS a cop. Neither it seems are effective to keep him from being arrested and charged, in fact the contract is used against him.



LadyCimarron -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 6:22:48 AM)

Thanks for the link. While the woman arrested in this case may suffer personal damages. There is no evidence in this case. There are also allegations of police misconduct in jsut about everything they did. The police did visually see what occured, but were wrong in entering the premises in the first place. But as I stated earlier whether or not something is an "assault" is based on how narrowly or broadly police and local officials choose to interpret the law. And again arrest, but no conviction. If the police wanted to they could arrest every guy at a game of tackle football because by legal definition they too are committing and assault. Again based on how narrowly or broadly the law is construed. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Also we often forget that not everyone involved in WIITWD engage in contact play. I know many who are into bdsm but do not hit. Masochists who enjoy mental and emotional pain rather than physical pain.

So other than the potential for assault. are there even any other laws that construed in a manner that affects us? and if not, can we still say that MOST of WIITWD is illegal?



MsAlisedeSade -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 6:33:03 AM)

I think you need to look it up and decide for yourself. Laws vary from state to state county to county so with that being said what may be legal in my neck of the woods may be illegal where you stand. It sounds rational what you are saying but the truth is when it comes to issues of morality the law stops making sense and people think that they have more rights than they do.



laurell3 -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 6:34:25 AM)

Since it's my comment you launched this post on, you might get it right, that's not exactly what I said.

Additionally, sure there are people that don't engage in contact play. There are also people that routinely engage in activities that you can't even mention on this site.

Asking people to quote case law and saying that the law varies as applied isn't really a compelling argument to counter the fact that those laws still do exist that makes the conduct illegal. There are risks. Telling people those risks don't exist on a public forum is just foolish.



LadyCimarron -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 6:41:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsAlisedeSade

I think you need to look it up and decide for yourself. Laws vary from state to state county to county so with that being said what may be legal in my neck of the woods may be illegal where you stand. It sounds rational what you are saying but the truth is when it comes to issues of morality the law stops making sense and people think that they have more rights than they do.


Thank you. I have been looking it up. You are right that we should all familiarize ourselves with state, local and federal laws as they pertain to sexual behavior and kink.

But I was not seeking answers as much as I was seeking open dialogue (and open minds) regarding the fear of arrest that many here seem to have. Many in this lifestyle are deathly afraid that the cops are coming for them. When actually most cops could probably give a darn if you are getting your kink on. As kinksters we are more likely to be outed than we are arrested, because most of what we do is not illegal at all.



thishereboi -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 6:41:03 AM)

quote:

So other than the potential for assault. are there even any other laws that construed in a manner that affects us? and if not, can we still say that MOST of WIITWD is illegal?


I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be arrested even for assault. Illegal is illegal, no matter what word you use for it.

The article said " Police said that according to state law, a person cannot consent to being assaulted, even for sexual pleasure."

Now the ones in this case were very lucky that the cops screwed up and the judge threw out the case. But that doesn't change the fact that beating someone for sexual pleasure is a crime in that state.



LadyCimarron -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 6:50:06 AM)

It was not your comment per se. It was the fact that this comment (or one similar to it) has been made very frequently by a variety of different people while discussing several issues. And most people here take it at face value that those statements are true. But in fact if we do a little research in our own laws we will find that it is inaccurate to state that most of what we do is illegal. Or to assume that all people in this lifestyle are engaging in some kind of illegal activity. Like I said earlier, many do not engage in contact play, so if they don't are they breaking any laws that we are aware of......I suppose that depends on where they live. But it is inaccurate for any of us to believe that we will be arrested and jailed for what we do, when the majority evidence is to the contrary. And so far the only things we have come up with as possibly illegal are contact play and pay for play. And then it depends on the laws of your area.

I apologize for targeting your statement. I did not mean it in a negative manner. I only wanted to explore that this issue and since your was the last post I read making it, it was directed at you. I meant no ill will and I am sorry if it caused you any. Thank you for engaging in this thread.



LadyCimarron -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 6:55:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

So other than the potential for assault. are there even any other laws that construed in a manner that affects us? and if not, can we still say that MOST of WIITWD is illegal?


I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be arrested even for assault. Illegal is illegal, no matter what word you use for it.

The article said " Police said that according to state law, a person cannot consent to being assaulted, even for sexual pleasure."

Now the ones in this case were very lucky that the cops screwed up and the judge threw out the case. But that doesn't change the fact that beating someone for sexual pleasure is a crime in that state.



Nope. I wouldn't want to be arrested for assault either. But funny many people don't mind getting arrested for punching a jerk in the nose but they wouldn't want to be arrested for THIS TYPE of assualt.

Until a case of this type actually makes it before a judge and the law is interpreted regarding kinksters, we cannot really say it IS a crime. We can say they were "charged with" a crime but the court would have to determine whether or not a crime has actually been committed. 



AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: BDSM LEGAL OR ILLEGAL... (6/6/2010 7:00:29 AM)

It's a crime in all 50 states. Sexual Pleasure doesn't matter.

However again it is EASILY defendable. Consenting adults in the Privacy of their own home or in Private Membership Clubs can Easily defend this, however the arrest will still happen because the letter of the law has been broken even if the nature of the law has not.

You cannot Consent Legally to be Beaten. This is why S&M is for the most part Not Legal, that is not to say that it is Illegal just not Legally Protected.

The fact remains that MUCH of what we do in WIITWD can be used to prosecute us for what we do. My Favorite is people who use Contracts and think that are keeping things more legally based, actually contracts have been used to prosecute the people who wrote them because the information within is usually incriminating as Slavery or any kind is illegal and Contracts usually outline a consentual slavery but slavery none the less.

Now the Contract is not the Innitial charge, Contracts are harmless, however if the person is arrested for a Witnessed Battery or Assult and tries to use the Contract as a defence they usually end up with a new charge.

I tell people the only Contract that helps in a BDSM Lifestyle is a Power of Attorney that gives legal before diminished capasity. Most of these are tricky and few actually hold up in a court of law when contested.

I know the Idea to make WIITWD all Kosher is a nice thought but in the end what we do is not currently a socially accepted lifestyle and therfore will always be Persecuted against, and in some cases can be Prosecuted against.

QSM



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