Slave's delusions

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SocratesNot -> Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 10:50:14 AM)
I am motivated by the thread "Doms/Masters who were actually abusers". I want to point out to two delusions that many slaves have and which prevents them from leaving an abusive relationship. First Deslusion - As NuevaVida said: quote: "I'm a slave; I have to take this from him as his property" This is only true in an ideal M/s relationship where Master cares intensely about the slave, and really, whatever the slave takes from him, won't harm the slave, but will only have beneficial long term effects. However, there are no ideal relationships, and if Master is neglecting and abusing the slave, then the slave does not have to take it from him, because the contract is already broken - by Master, even if there was no official contract, there is always unwritten rule that says "All the parties in the relationship will not do anything that can permanently harm or damage the other party or the relationship itself" As soon as the Dom breaks this unwritten rule, the slave does not have to take anything more from him, and does not even have to obey him - she is completely free to leave. Second delusion: quote: I'm enslaved, so I can't leave. This is true only in cases of non-consensual slavery. Since in WIITWD we talk about consensual slavery, at any moment the slave can withdraw her consent and leave the relationship. This will usually happen only if the Dom breaks the aforementioned rule: "All the parties in the relationship will not do anything that can permanently harm or damage the other party or the relationship itself", but this can happen even if the slave just chooses that she doesn't want to be a slave anymore (which is extremely unlikely in any meaningful and fulfilling M/s relationship ) That's just my opinion, that I felt like sharing with you guys. Any comments?

tazzygirl -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 10:59:00 AM)
The first part of your post, i have no problem with, except to add that the term "abusive" is different for everyone. What i may constitute as abusive, you may be perfectly fine with. Labeling something abusive from the outside can be misleading. quote: Second delusion: quote: I'm enslaved, so I can't leave. This is true only in cases of non-consensual slavery. Since in WIITWD we talk about consensual slavery, at any moment the slave can withdraw her consent and leave the relationship. This will usually happen only if the Dom breaks the aforementioned rule: "All the parties in the relationship will not do anything that can permanently harm or damage the other party or the relationship itself", but this can happen even if the slave just chooses that she doesn't want to be a slave anymore (which is extremely unlikely in any meaningful and fulfilling M/s relationship. That's just my opinion, that I felt like sharing with you guys. Any comments? I take exception to this part of your post. Someone can indeed be so emotionally enslaved that they feel like they cannot leave. As long as they have those feelings... they can not and will not leave... no matter how bad it may be. I do believe we all have a breaking point. That point differs for each person. To claim that the inability to leave only happens in the case of nonconsensual slavery is, again, misleading. Matters of the heart can not be categorized quite as easily as we would like them to be.

SocratesNot -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 11:09:16 AM)
quote: Someone can indeed be so emotionally enslaved that they feel like they cannot leave. As long as they have those feelings... they can not and will not leave... no matter how bad it may be. This is true, but this only depends on their feelings and emotions. If the relationship is abusive enough they may try to modify these emotions so that they can leave. Technically, there is absolutely nothing that prevents them from leaving except themselves.

tazzygirl -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 11:12:19 AM)
True enough. And the only thing keeping them there is them, themselves. Do you see the power in that statement? ETA Who is more enslaved... the person who is legally owned, yet yearns for freedom and looks for ways to find it... or the person who is emotionally owned and hungers only for that ownership to continue?

brainiacsub -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 11:15:28 AM)
The "delusion of slavery" that you reference can easily be defined as battered women's syndrome by the vanilla. You will find that women predisposed to dysfunctional vanilla relationships are just as likely to seek out dysfunctional lifestyle ones. An abused slave today is someone else's abused wife tomorow, and vise versa. BDSM has little to do with it except for the ritualization.

SocratesNot -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 11:19:49 AM)
quote: BDSM has little to do with it except for the ritualization. Yeah, but the ritualization makes wonders in increasing emotional dependence, and reinforcing these delusions. The power of ritual is strong. quote: Who is more enslaved... the person who is legally owned, yet yearns for freedom and looks for ways to find it... or the person who is emotionally owned and hungers only for that ownership to continue? As long as she is hungry for the ownership, she is more enslaved. But this hunger may fade if she is abused continually.

myotherself -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 11:23:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot I am motivated by the thread "Doms/Masters who were actually abusers". I want to point out to two delusions that many slave's have and which prevents them from leaving an abusive relationship. The bolded part seems to be a bit of a sweeping generalisation. Do you have any data/real-life information to back this up? I'm saying this because you seem to be rather dismissive of the intellectual and emotional capabilities of slaves. First and foremost they are people. There are dumb people, and there are smart people, and there are all those inbetween. I have a feeling that this isn't exactly what you meant, and is just rather clumsy wording. Yes? As to the main point - I can't see the difference between what you said about an abusive M/s relationship and an abusive relationship full stop. Write your first statement as: "I'm his girlfriend/wife; I have to take this from him because we're married/living together/have children" And your second point - "I'm married/reliant on him for money/can't look after the kids on my own, so I can't leave" (apologies for the gender bias here - it applies for men and same-gender couples) Maybe there is an extra element thrown in from the M/s perspective where the slave may feel s/he has to do as they are told by the Master/Mistress, but to be honest I'm struggling to see it.

SocratesNot -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 11:34:23 AM)
Myotherself, maybe it's a generalization, but I have seen this many times among slaves. i don't think they are stupid, I just think they are maybe deluded by the theory of slavery which reinforces these beliefs. That's why I am not very fond of prescriptive theories of BDSM, M/s, or D/s. The only theories should be descriptive ones, those that describe what happens and what can happen in reality. The prescriptive theories, that tell us what we SHOULD do, are meaningless in my opinion, because all the relationships are different, and there's no authority who can prescribe what people should do. But there are such theories and these theories, unfortunately, reinforce these false beliefs. Saying that all of this can happen in vanilla world, as well, is perfectly true, but at the same time this is an intentional relativization. There are some factors in M/s which are specific to M/s so these delusions should be treated separately from the delusions in vanilla relationships, even if they are not any more often present in M/s than vanilla. I personally think that they are more often present in M/s, but this is not the point. The point is that they are different types of delusions which can't be put in the same box. In vanilla relationships reasons for staying in an abusive relationship are usually practical or utilitarian, while in M/s they are usually based on these false beliefs that are spread by those prescriptive theories.

brainiacsub -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 12:14:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot Yeah, but the ritualization makes wonders in increasing emotional dependence, and reinforcing these delusions. The power of ritual is strong. Only for the weak minded and fools, young Jedi...

porcelaine -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 12:16:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot I am motivated by the thread "Doms/Masters who were actually abusers". I want to point out to two delusions that many slaves have and which prevents them from leaving an abusive relationship. You're placing all the blame on the relationship without taking into account the girl's mindset when entering. That plays a huge part on who she chooses and how the partnership unfolds. If I neither like nor love myself and have a gaping hole inside that I'm wanting an outsider to fill I'm probably going to make some very bad decisions. If I find someone that meets that need in some way and the hurt lessens I'll probably remain even if I'm not completely satisfied because one ache is better than the other. I can use all sorts of quantifiers and emotional attachment is one of them. But the bottom line is I stay because for some ungodly reason this insanity fills a void I don't believe I can get elsewhere. Some people would rather live in hell than be alone. ~porcelaine

myotherself -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 12:23:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot Myotherself, maybe it's a generalization, but I have seen this many times among slaves. SN - I get your drift, but I'm struggling with your information which backs up your data. You have quite freely admitted that you are new to this, and your location makes it difficult/impossible to join a bdsm scene. That sucks, and I feel for you [:)] I'm just wondering how you've done all of this detailed observation...

SocratesNot -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 12:28:20 PM)
quote: You're placing all the blame on the relationship without taking into account the girl's mindset when entering. That plays a huge part on who she chooses and how the partnership unfolds. If I neither like nor love myself and have a gaping hole inside that I'm wanting an outsider to fill I'm probably going to make some very bad decisions. If I find someone that meets that need in some way and the hurt lessens I'll probably remain even if I'm not completely satisfied because one ache is better than the other. I can use all sorts of quantifiers and emotional attachment is one of them. But the bottom line is I stay because for some ungodly reason this insanity fills a void I don't believe I can get elsewhere. Some people would rather live in hell than be alone. ~porcelaine This possibility exists, but this shouldn't be encouraged. The only thing that should be encouraged is empowerment of slaves and letting go of the delusions. They are perfectly free to stay in the most abusive relationship conceivable. But, what is important is that they don't delude themselves. They will stay in an abusive relationship because they want it, not because they can't leave. They should know that in theory they can leave at any time, so if they choose to stay, this is their choice and responsibility. quote: Some people would rather live in hell than be alone. Being alone creates an opportunity of finding another "hell", perhaps much less hellish hell, than the one they are currently in.

leadership527 -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 1:42:48 PM)
sighs Once again, you fail to understand things in all of their complexity. Here's an example I gave just recently. Quantum Mechanics tells us that things don't actually exist in the way we normally think of it. More and more, as we peel back the layers of the onion, we find that concepts like "matter", "energy", "time", and a whole ton of other fundamentals are not exactly accurate. That being said, if I were to propose dropping a bowling ball on my foot, would you see it as reasonable to point out that it was likely going to crush some bones? The point here is that "truth" even in the hard sciences, is frequently a many-layered thing. Different viewpoints yield different answers. Each viewpoint has it's uses depending on the problem which is being solved. In a pragmatic, day-to-day, drop-the-bowling-ball-on-my-foot sort of way, neither Carol nor I can leave each other. The thought is really just not thinkable. It's a perfectly appropriate and useful way to think about our day-to-day existence. At a deeper, and more precise level, it would be more accurate to say that "without some fundamental change in our relationship, the idea of ending the relationship is non-sensical." But honestly, that level of detail is not only needlessly complex but also actually counter-productive to solving day to day problems.

gungadin09 -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 1:49:10 PM)
I'd like to add my two cents to this debate... "I'm a slave; I have to take this from him as his property" This is only true in an ideal M/s relationship where Master cares intensely about the slave, and really, whatever the slave takes from him, won't harm the slave, but will only have beneficial long term effects. However, there are no ideal relationships, and if Master is neglecting and abusing the slave, then the slave does not have to take it from him, because the contract is already broken - by Master, I think that this is good advice, except that people will disagree about the exact meaning of the terms "caring intensely about the slave", "harming the slave", "beneficial long term effects", "neglect", "abuse", and what is likely to "cause permanent harm to the relationship". It is likely that the two people involved will define those terms in very different ways. i suspect that every Master believes that they care about their slave and that their actions are in the slave's best interest, even when this is clearly not true. It is also possible for a Master who really does care about His slave, to go too far without knowing it. i also suspect that every slave who loves their Master would be inclined to trust His judgment, even when it goes against common sense. Love makes us stupid, almost by definition, and emotion clouds our good judgement in cases like these. It is far easier to spot abuse in someone else's relationships than in our own. The basis of every relationship is trust, and a certain degree of give and take. That's why it's so hard to see it when someone crosses over the line. i think it's a bit harsh to classify there behaviors as "delusions". Determining where to draw the line, when to get out of a bad relationship, these are problems we all struggle with at one time or another, because the answers to these questions are not so crystal clear. Anyway, just my opinion. pam

January -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 1:55:29 PM)
quote: In vanilla relationships reasons for staying in an abusive relationship are usually practical or utilitarian And where did you pick up this piece of wisdom? There are a lot of reasons for staying in an abusive relationship that have nothing to do with practicalities. Some of these reasons involve emotions that are NOT fear. One example is the victim's enjoyment of drama. I'll let the psychologists give you other examples. (There are so many brilliant people on these boards!) Here again, you take a set of faulty constructs, and ask us to build a theory around them. You may think because your constructs evolve (each one requiring a new thread), you are learning. You aren't. You are not iterating to knowledge because you still think you have to start with constructs. This isn't math, guy, this is behavior. And as I've said before, you will not understand BDSM relationships unless you understand relationships. And for that, you either have to live, or as a second best option, learn. Learning outside of your own head. January

NorthernGent -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 2:05:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot "All the parties in the relationship will not do anything that can permanently harm or damage the other party or the relationship itself", but this can happen even if the slave just chooses that she doesn't want to be a slave anymore (which is extremely unlikely in any meaningful and fulfilling M/s relationship ) Of course it can happen. There will be plenty of instances where people have crossed the line with respect to both BDSM norms and social norms. I would say that's a given....Socrates. But look around you in every walk of life....particularly work....and you will see bullying and people abusing their position....to the point where those on the receiving end kill themselves (extreme circumstances granted). That's life.....BDSM included. And yeah...sometimes people will find themselves in a situation and for whatever reason be unable to see the woods for trees and help themselves. Then again...I'm sure we've all been there at some point....in some sphere of life or another....being human beings and all. Not being flippant....my advice would be to build your own relationship....make your rules....and assuming you're concerned with a fair crack of the whip for all.....which your posts suggest.....then I'm sure it will pan out fine. But you'll never find the definitive answer to: "is slavery abuse?" The definitive answer doesn't exist. Oh...and I think 'permanent' may be the operative word in the quote.....which adds another dimension.

porcelaine -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 2:42:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SocratesNot This possibility exists, but this shouldn't be encouraged. The only thing that should be encouraged is empowerment of slaves and letting go of the delusions. If the mind is compromised at the onset the delusions you speak of are the least of her problems. They only compound what's already there. quote: Being alone creates an opportunity of finding another "hell", perhaps much less hellish hell, than the one they are currently in. On the contrary the one that follows isn't always better. It depends on whether she wakes up or continues the pattern. ~porcelaine

TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 3:07:39 PM)
One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned is that sometimes when in an abusive (emotionally or physically) relationship for long enough, you sometimes forget that it isn't normal or regular. Some stay because though they hate it, they forget that what is going on isn't acceptable so they grin and bear it because they forget that they can get better.

thishereboi -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 3:16:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub The "delusion of slavery" that you reference can easily be defined as battered women's syndrome by the vanilla. You will find that women predisposed to dysfunctional vanilla relationships are just as likely to seek out dysfunctional lifestyle ones. An abused slave today is someone else's abused wife tomorow, and vise versa. BDSM has little to do with it except for the ritualization. Yea, I agree with this. The only difference I see is the excuses. The slave says "I can't leave because he is my master" and the vanilla wife says "I can't leave because he is my husband" or "because of the kids" Either way, they see no way out of the situation and may even have low enough self esteem to think they deserve the treatment they receive.

SocratesNot -> RE: Slave's delusions (6/6/2010 3:17:30 PM)
quote: One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned is that sometimes when in an abusive (emotionally or physically) relationship for long enough, you sometimes forget that it isn't normal or regular. Some stay because though they hate it, they forget that what is going on isn't acceptable so they grin and bear it because they forget that they can get better. That's why we need to mention such delusions from time to time, and make it clear that they can get better, and that they can leave if everything in the relationship fails.

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