RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ?

RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/7/2010 7:58:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML elsewhere aren't witches to be stoned to death? I have been told - presumably on these forums - that the original text read "poisoners of wells" and that due to Greek and later English translation errors it was replaced by "witches". I remember that claim as well. I wonder if anyone can document it or supply the pertinent words that might show the probability of error.

Musicmystery -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/7/2010 8:01:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 If it hasn`t been pointed out,Islam,Judaism and Christianity all worship and pray to the same God. Untrue. Unless you can point out where the Islamic god has sent his son to be crucified on the cross etc, like the Christian God has. ;) Jesus in Islam From Wikipedia In Islam, Jesus (Arabic: عيسى‎ `Īsā) is considered a prophet Messenger of God who had been sent to guide the People of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl (gospel).[1] The Qur'an, believed by Muslims to be God's final revelation, mentions Jesus 25 times.[2] It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic: Allah). To aid him in his quest, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles, all by the permission of God. According to Islamic texts, Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, but rather he was raised alive up to heaven.[3] The Qur’an narrates that he will return to Earth near the day of judgment to restore justice and defeat al-Masīḥ ad-Dajjāl (lit. "the false messiah", also known as the Antichrist).[4][5] Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim, as he preached for people to adopt the straight path in submission to God's will. Islam rejects that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, stating that he was a mortal man who, like other prophets, had been divinely chosen to spread God's message. Islamic texts forbid the association of partners with God (shirk), emphasizing the notion of God's divine oneness (tawhīd). Numerous titles are given to Jesus in the Qur'an, such as al-Masīḥ ("the messiah; the anointed one" i.e. by means of blessings), although it does not correspond with the meaning accrued in Christian belief. Jesus is seen in Islam as a precursor to Muhammad, and is believed by Muslims to have foretold the latter's coming.[5][6]

vincentML -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/7/2010 8:08:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML [Ohhhh right! Like that never occurred to you before, LadyC!! You really need a manual? [;)] Who me? .......I'm a good girl................my slaves say DAMN good![sm=mistress.gif] back on topic: I think all 3 books could be used as moral guidance if they were not so bogged down with religious dogma. The problem with religions is that most of them have an all or nothing clause. Nowadays more and more people are choosing the nothing. I dunno, LadyC. Once you get past "love one another" and "do unto others as you would have them do onto you" what more do you need? Surely not endless volumes of rules and prohibitions and dietary restrictions and parables and miracles and admonishments. Blah!

Aneirin -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/7/2010 8:55:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 If it hasn`t been pointed out,Islam,Judaism and Christianity all worship and pray to the same God. Untrue. Unless you can point out where the Islamic god has sent his son to be crucified on the cross etc, like the Christian God has. ;) Jesus in Islam From Wikipedia In Islam, Jesus (Arabic: عيسى‎ `Īsā) is considered a prophet Messenger of God who had been sent to guide the People of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl (gospel).[1] The Qur'an, believed by Muslims to be God's final revelation, mentions Jesus 25 times.[2] It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic: Allah). To aid him in his quest, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles, all by the permission of God. According to Islamic texts, Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, but rather he was raised alive up to heaven.[3] The Qur’an narrates that he will return to Earth near the day of judgment to restore justice and defeat al-Masīḥ ad-Dajjāl (lit. "the false messiah", also known as the Antichrist).[4][5] Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim, as he preached for people to adopt the straight path in submission to God's will. Islam rejects that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, stating that he was a mortal man who, like other prophets, had been divinely chosen to spread God's message. Islamic texts forbid the association of partners with God (shirk), emphasizing the notion of God's divine oneness (tawhīd). Numerous titles are given to Jesus in the Qur'an, such as al-Masīḥ ("the messiah; the anointed one" i.e. by means of blessings), although it does not correspond with the meaning accrued in Christian belief. Jesus is seen in Islam as a precursor to Muhammad, and is believed by Muslims to have foretold the latter's coming.[5][6] Well, there's some similarity there between Islamic and Christian belief, and it was my understanding that Islam was indeed an offshoot of Christianity. Who is right, who is wrong does it really matter, as no one seems particularly clued as to what happened AD, where Christianity went and what it got into. Could it even be the rejection of Islam is more to do with the established powers of the time and later not wanting to give up their authority. There was a suggestion somewhere else that Islam might even be a response to Christianity losing it's way with the power grabbing and such of the elite. Perhaps the existence of Jesus was a message to change people's ways, which they did for a while before it got bogged down in authority, Mohammed could very well have been the next message from God, which became a religion in itself.

LadyCimarron -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/7/2010 8:57:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I dunno, LadyC. Once you get past "love one another" and "do unto others as you would have them do onto you" what more do you need? Surely not endless volumes of rules and prohibitions and dietary restrictions and parables and miracles and admonishments. Blah! To be honest when it comes to the Bible, I just pick out the parts that I can use and that work for me and I disregard the rest......... YES I know I'm going to hell. I'm comfortable with it. [;)]

DarkSteven -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/7/2010 10:19:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron YES I know I'm going to hell. I'm comfortable with it. [;)] Want me to pick out a nice comfy spot for you when I get there? [:)]

gingy -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/7/2010 11:46:41 PM)
They are means by which to control the population and obtain wealth.

eyesopened -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 4:29:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML elsewhere aren't witches to be stoned to death? I have been told - presumably on these forums - that the original text read "poisoners of wells" and that due to Greek and later English translation errors it was replaced by "witches". I remember that claim as well. I wonder if anyone can document it or supply the pertinent words that might show the probability of error. I found this: http://www.beyondweird.com/Wicca/define.html "HEBREW: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance shows seven references to the words "witch," "witchcraft," and "witchcrafts." It identifies three words as receiving that translation. Two of them are the same root word: kashaph and kesheph. Strong's observes that the proper translation for kashaph is "to whisper" as in to whisper or mutter a spell. If they are correct, then perhaps the best possible modern translations would be "enchanter" and "enchantments" (from "chant"). In this context, Exodus 22:18 would read, "Thou shalt not permit an enchanter to live." The remaining word is used only once, and that is qecem, which Strong's identifies as derived from qacem, which means to determine by drawing lots. They give the translation, based on this, as being "divination" as in to read random elements such as tarot cards. By this context, I Samuel 15:23 would read, "For rebellion is as the sin of divination." GREEK: According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, the word "witch" does not appear in the KJV New Testament; the word "witchcraft" appears once in Galations 5:20. In that verse the Greek given is indeed the much-mistranslated word pharmakeia. Strong's gives its derivation as being from pharmakeus, which means potion."

DomYngBlk -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 4:51:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin I was asking the question in the hope that someone could tell me if they were in fact designed to be a manual for moral guidance, you know the stuff if taken on board might lead one to be the best person they can be for themselves, others and the enviroment. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.......start there and I think it is something that can be used in daily life and become the person you should be.

Aneirin -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 5:00:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin I was asking the question in the hope that someone could tell me if they were in fact designed to be a manual for moral guidance, you know the stuff if taken on board might lead one to be the best person they can be for themselves, others and the enviroment. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.......start there and I think it is something that can be used in daily life and become the person you should be. So basically that is saying how you treat others depends on how you treat yourself. If so, if you treat yourself with disrespect etc.

eyesopened -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 5:17:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin I was asking the question in the hope that someone could tell me if they were in fact designed to be a manual for moral guidance, you know the stuff if taken on board might lead one to be the best person they can be for themselves, others and the enviroment. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.......start there and I think it is something that can be used in daily life and become the person you should be. So basically that is saying how you treat others depends on how you treat yourself. If so, if you treat yourself with disrespect etc. I have always read that as meaning you shoud love yourself and when you love yourself, love others the same. Are you always so negative about everything?

Raiikun -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 5:58:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Islam rejects that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, stating that he was a mortal man Thanks for proving my point. The Christian God calls Jesus his son. The Muslim one doesn't. If someone now were to pull a Muhammed, borrow some scripture, and invent a whole new religion from it (something like the Phelps family practically does IMO), I wouldn't consider that "god" to be the same as the Christian God either.

DarkSteven -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 6:14:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun If someone now were to pull a Muhammed, borrow some scripture, and invent a whole new religion from it (something like the Phelps family practically does IMO), I wouldn't consider that "god" to be the same as the Christian God either. The Mormons did exactly that. They came up with two new books (The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price) and held them to be primary in the event of conflicts with the Bible (like the Muslims did with the Quran). BTW, one of the reasons that Hebrew is so hard to translate is that for reasons unknown to me, the vowels are not shown!

Musicmystery -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 7:11:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun If someone now were to pull a Muhammed, borrow some scripture, and invent a whole new religion from it (something like the Phelps family practically does IMO), I wouldn't consider that "god" to be the same as the Christian God either. The Mormons did exactly that. They came up with two new books (The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price) and held them to be primary in the event of conflicts with the Bible (like the Muslims did with the Quran). BTW, one of the reasons that Hebrew is so hard to translate is that for reasons unknown to me, the vowels are not shown! Yeah, but he's playing the "to me...." game, so therefore any evidence not in his imaginings is automatically invalid. Mirror, mirror, on the wall... quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun Thanks for proving my point. You have no clue what constitutes proof. Or about history, for that matter.

Rule -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 7:53:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened Two of them are the same root word: kashaph and kesheph. Strong's observes that the proper translation for kashaph is "to whisper" as in to whisper or mutter a spell. If they are correct, then perhaps the best possible modern translations would be "enchanter" and "enchantments" (from "chant"). In this context, Exodus 22:18 would read, "Thou shalt not permit an enchanter to live." Isn't that what people who pray do: to whisper or mutter a spell? So another, perchance more valid interpretation is: "Thou shalt not permit someone who prays to live", or even "Thou shalt not permit someone who conspires to live", or "Thou shalt not permit someone who vilifies another to live".

LadyCimarron -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 8:55:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Isn't that what people who pray do: to whisper or mutter a spell? So another, perchance more valid interpretation is: "Thou shalt not permit someone who prays to live", or even "Thou shalt not permit someone who conspires to live", or "Thou shalt not permit someone who vilifies another to live". I have often wondered this myself. Whether or not there is a true difference between praying and casting a spell. They are both attempts to influence a natural outcome by spiritual means.

Musicmystery -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 8:56:21 AM)
They can also be a way to focus one's own perspective.

Rule -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 9:57:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron I have often wondered this myself. Whether or not there is a true difference between praying and casting a spell. They are both attempts to influence a natural outcome by spiritual means. It does not matter. The pagan god of the Jews was murdered many centuries before Jesus and Saint Paul and when such a ruling pagan god is murdered or otherwise dethroned, all his edicts become null and void. He was the ruling pagan god of his time, not of any later times.

LadyCimarron -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 10:35:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron I have often wondered this myself. Whether or not there is a true difference between praying and casting a spell. They are both attempts to influence a natural outcome by spiritual means. It does not matter. The pagan god of the Jews was murdered many centuries before Jesus and Saint Paul and when such a ruling pagan god is murdered or otherwise dethroned, all his edicts become null and void. He was the ruling pagan god of his time, not of any later times. How is that relevant to what I aked about the difference between prayer and casting a spell?

Rule -> RE: The Torah, Bible, Koran ? (6/8/2010 11:07:16 AM)
There is no difference. It is the Divine who facilitates the desires of the pagan gods, other humans and all other life, as well perchance as those of the inanimate.

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