quote:

As a point in logic if I assert that the earth revolves around the sun would you want proof?

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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As a point in logic if I assert that the earth revolves around the sun would you want proof?

No. First, it's common knowledge, and second, it's readily demonstrated.

Neither apply here, except to the believers.

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ORIGINAL: DCWoody

"Take a couple of google strokes and you will even find the tape of johnson saying "I want that god damn ship on the bottom."

Doesn't exist. The source is a quote from a guy many many years later, saying that another guy told him that another guy had told him that president had said that.


Don't ever start checking your sources or anything will ya.

"Instead of trying to make this a left vs. right mindset"

I'm not even american. This isn't a matter of right or left, it's a matter of time flowing forwards.

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behave like the rational person we all know you to be.

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ORIGINAL: DCWoody

What the shit are you talking about?
I never said 'prove it prove it', or anything of the sort, I said I DID go to google and I discovered that the recording DOES NOT EXIST. There is not and never was any such recording. The only way you could have been shown to be more wrong is if there hadn't ever been a President named Johnson. The claim is in diametrical conflict with reality, there can be no more firm refutation.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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behave like the rational person we all know you to be.

Rational person, n.
1) one who agrees with you

No thanks. I can still distinguish hard facts from interpretations and beliefs.

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Tens of millions of people watched it on "60 minutes" They watched the ship being attacked by israelie aircraft and heard the recording with johnsons voice.
Do you think it possible that 60 minutes could have broadcast that and not lost it's license if it were not true?
Do you thik it possile that "60 minutes" might still have that in it's archives? Or do you believe that because you were unable to find it that it does not exist.
Do you deny that the israelies attacked the ship?
Do you deny that the ship was clearly marked as an american ship?
Do you deny that the israelies paid more thatn 14 million in reperations?
Do you deny that the rescue aircraft were recalled before they got to the ship being attacked? [b/]

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ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

I've got no horse in this race, but out of interest I tried to find prove for the alleged Ford quote.

The quote was by lyndon johnson not gerrald ford.

I am not invested enough to do a long, drawn out search, but "a couple of Google strokes", or even a bit more than "a couple" yields nothing that would substantiate your assertions thompsonx.

The couple of google strokes was in reference to finding the basic data about the attack on the u.s. ship.
The tape recording was part of the "60 minutes" story on the incident. My best guess would be that it is in the "60 minutes" archives which should be accessable from the net.
I have, however found that "meet the press" edited out a few choice words uttered by dick chenny concerning hugo chavez which I heard but was unable to extract from the "meet the press" archives. As in "they aint there no more"

However, the discussion got me interested. Any chance you would be so kind as to refer me to a source?

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"PROOF? "

If you are asserting that those who served on that ship are lying, in what is almost a deathbed statement, sorry, the burden of proof is on you.

In fact instead of that, why don't you just tell us the reasons, in your own words, just why they would lie under these circumstances ? Explain it to me so I may understand better how these old Men are benefitting from their collective prevarication ?

T

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"PROOF? "

If you are asserting that those who served on that ship are lying, in what is almost a deathbed statement, sorry, the burden of proof is on you.

In fact instead of that, why don't you just tell us the reasons, in your own words, just why they would lie under these circumstances ? Explain it to me so I may understand better how these old Men are benefitting from their collective prevarication ?

T

No.

What I am asserting is it was the mistake the Israelis claimed it to be and the U.S. accepted.

And I'm getting fucking sick of what is supposed to be a board discussing politics and religion being turned into one conspiracy theory after another.

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

Of all the.........

OK now 60 Minutes is gospel ?

No one said "60 minutes" was gospel.
You did hear that dan rather was canned for not validating some of his allegations about bush's military service....not proved wrong just that he had not validated all of his facts. So imagine what would have happened if they had caught them in an outright falsehood.


I didn't see it on TV. When I got wind of it, the details were a bit different.

First of all my source read "Was quoted as saying", no tape was mentioned. I find it hard to believe that he had something like the Nixon tapes. Of course I have heard/read a few different things about the content of those tapes.


Type in uss liberty into google and you will get about 130,000 hits. Peruse them and see what you find please do not take my word for any of this.

I also heard/read that a few of the Isreali pilots refused to attack the Liberty, which resulted in their court martial. They said they thought it had to be a mistake.

I never watched the movie Loss Of Liberty when it aired on PBS, so I have no idea. I don't watch TV.

So what do you get a medal for not watching tv? You have a computer and access to the net so go to google.

I never heard about the $14 million they coughed up, but my question still stands, how much was the foreign aid package to Israel that year ? What year did they cough up the money ? Once I got that I can find the figure myself. But it might not have been right then in 1967. It could have been later. A quick look reveals that in the years preceding, US aid to Israel averaged $63 million a year. So they paid us back with our own money. What's more AIPAC was already in existence, so in effect we have been giving them the money with which to bribe our government for most or all of my lifetime. Nice "work" if you can get it huh !



That they bribed us with our own money is not relevant. What is relevant is that they paid which means they did it.

Now foreign aid to that country is up in the billions. Oy vay, inflation !

So how many pages is it going to take the argument over the existence of a monophonic tape recording, on reel to reel as there were no cassettes, recorded so long ago that even if we had a reliable source for comparison, might not be clear enough for a voiceprint ?

Have you a point here. I remember hearing the tape on "60 minutes". Whether it was a cartridge,cassett,wire or a phoquing I do not know...I am sure anyone with the right equipment could fake someones voice. I am not sure that "60 minutes" would risk their license to make money on something they could not validate and so far no one ,to my knowledge. has challanged the validity of the "60 minutes" article about the uss liberty.


So the old story about George washington dying while eating cherries and milk, we have days on end to argue whether or not they were bing cherries, and how ripe they were. The tinfoilers would presume that the cherries got back at him and it was a great cherry conspiracy. Then the toe the party liners will extoll the virtues of homogenized, pasteurized and stabilized milk, and herald the virtues of the Gestapo tactics used against farmers who dare sell raw milk. What, is this bullshit going to resurrect him or something ?

And the question remains, who the hell ordered those fighter planes to turn back, and turned their back on our soldiers ? Like I said it was not Mickey Mouse. It certainly wasn't Henry Ford, but I imagine that MAN if still alive, and President would have ordered those planes to show Isreal just how BIG of a mistake that attack was. I certainly would have. Allies my fucking ass. If you attack my people, I don't care who you are, you will be sorry.

There was an incident in wwII where five russian fighters "accidently" attacked a flight of 15th airforce fighters...no one was hurt but plenty of asshole puckering all around. Stalin had the five russian pilots shot and their coffins delivered to the 15th airforce with his apologies.
More than a little extreme in my opinion but that was stalin's response to his boys fucking up with one of his minor allies.

Or did our Commander In Chief of the entire military might of the US just "forget" that ship was there ? Have they been that incompetent for that long ? Fuck, if they're that stupid I don't think I would let them mow my grass.

That sounds reasonable to me.

Unlike some here, I am not going to pussyfoot around this issue. Not after some coincidences. Three come to mind. One, JFK had a problem with them and is dead. Nixon had a problem with them and was impeached. Clinton had a problem with them and was impeached. Trafficant had a problem with them and wound up in prison. The list goes on. Oh sorry, that's four.


????????????????

And some of you people think that this is all fine and good, and either excuse Israel or give them the benefit of the doubt, however small, just because I guess. At the same time you would herald the imprisonment of Ernst Zundel, who never hurt anyone. Why don't you take a step back and realize things how they are. There is such a thing as too much coincidence.

First rule of ambush...
Never go to someone else's ambush.
second rule of ambush...
There are no coincidences.



And for some reason alot of people think that all that lobbyist money buys them nothing. Come on, if they wanted to throw money down a hole all they need is more boats, also known as a hole in the water.

Beam me up Scotty.

T