Feminization as humiliation?

Feminization as humiliation? (Full Version)

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ServiceNTucson -> Feminization as humiliation? (4/11/2006 11:23:26 PM)
As something of a Female Supremist, I've always wondered about the attraction to "humiliating or degrading a man" by feminizing him. I don't mean this as a put down to anybody's individual kink. But I've often seen feminization described as making a man into something "less" than a man. To my own particular (and admittedly peculiar) way of thinking, one does not make a man into something less than a man by making him into an imitation of something greater than a man, i.e. a Woman. As I've often put it, feminizing somebody like me is not degrading to me. It is, however, insulting to Femininity. It seems to me that you want to degrade a man, make him a dog, make him a horse, make him a piece of furniture. But don't make him into a mockery of a Woman. I'm curious about how others feel about this, particularly Dominant Women.

Real0ne -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/11/2006 11:39:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ServiceNTucson As something of a Female Supremist, I've always wondered about the attraction to "humiliating or degrading a man" by feminizing him. I don't mean this as a put down to anybody's individual kink. But I've often seen feminization described as making a man into something "less" than a man. To my own particular (and admittedly peculiar) way of thinking, one does not make a man into something less than a man by making him into an imitation of something greater than a man, i.e. a Woman. As I've often put it, feminizing somebody like me is not degrading to me. It is, however, insulting to Femininity. It seems to me that you want to degrade a man, make him a dog, make him a horse, make him a piece of furniture. But don't make him into a mockery of a Woman. I'm curious about how others feel about this, particularly Dominant Women. i just did a thing about humiliation http://www.collarchat.com/Scene_Politics_vs%25_Personal_Politics/m_324964/tm.htm What does not make sense to me with your post is how changing the things around you to be more feminine, ie men, could possibly be an insult to women? It seems to me the contrary would be true and this would be a monument to women and a real life demonstration as to the power of femininity over masculinity

sissikerin -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 1:15:31 AM)
A lot of the humiliation by feminizing a person would be also answered in the HOW is the male feminized. Being feminized in a ridiculous was can be very much a humiliation even to people like me.

TeeGO -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 2:31:42 AM)
As a male sub knowing, a lot of Doms are into feminization; well, in good conscious I cannot say that this is a hard limit for me, do to my definition of a hard limit being something that harms you in some way. However it's a place I hope to never go because I know I'd feel like crawling under a rock, humiliated to the bone. Yes that would very much be humiliating. A man is a man, not a woman. Even if you believe that women are greater, you feminizing a man is not making him a woman, your just crushing his manhood. There can be no question your humiliating him. Now whether you find it insulting is another story, and I can see that. I respect everyone's kink, I do. But seeing a man dressed as a woman is hard for me to look at. (Women made to look like men are no better to me.) No offense. Even when they are very good and I can't tell, when I do find out I do feel a bit sickish. I'm not trying to offend here just making a point to the OP. You crossgender people, I do support you in what it is you do. Did I mention I don't want to offend? (Ok a few times already.)

novacaine -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 2:52:35 AM)
Okay, so it's 5am & I hope this makes sense. As a card-carrying feminist, I do not like feminization-as-humilation. Feminization and cross dressing do little for me as it is, although I do not have a problem with it, but i have a big problem with the idea of humilating someone in that way. I know feminine doesn't mean female, nor doesn it mean woman, but I do not see it as a weakened state and I would not use it to humilate someone. It just makes me think--how do they see women? Do pumps and a wig make you feel like a woman? Does cleaning my house and being referred to by a female pronoun make you feel like a woman?

Pinkpottiepants -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 3:08:25 AM)
I have been feminized as a form of humiliation and no it does not make me feel like woman. I have been put into diapers and it doesn't make me feel like a baby. The humiliation comes from taking ones manhood away and in a mocking way, being presented as something you would never want anyone to see you as. You don't have to be passable as a woman or a baby or a dog or what ever else you are being force to be, in fact being passable would take some of the humiliation out of it, as it would offer a way to hide behind the new image. Feminization can only be used as humiliation if the submissive doesn't like crossdressing, so for those Mistresses who cater to the crossdresser, this has nothing to do with humiliation.

openmindedslave -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 3:46:01 AM)
This woul;d depend on how the sub sees it ...just like giving out pain can be a reward instead of a punishment. If you fem a male as a form of humilation I don't believe you are trying to disrespect woman. If you privately make a man dress as he is not accustom to because he knows he must obey your commands, then you are starting to control his mind and build his trust. Next , if you really have someone who just does not desire the dressing up and you make him do it ,,its also another tier of resistance you have met and won over as a Mistress. The fact that he may dress in clothing a woman would does not make him a woman at all. In fact , in humilation he will usually be seen as a " wanta bee," "or as a ugly whatever ...." Even sometimes given a new name to embarrass him further.Stripping him of any form of manhood in their presents. Total control over a sub is the desire. That also includes , or can include forms of chasity with a reminder that he has lost his manhood or he is not to get arrousal while in drag. That is hard choire for most men when they are being told at the same time that they are failures or freaks or whatever as they are wearing womans clothing . And sometimes , the need for humilation will lead to further play with strap on's or doing choires around the home while they start to become more accustom to thier new state. And all through this , you know as a dom that they could never really tell their family or buddies what you put them through. They may say if it got out that you tied them up and spanked them , but very few guys would have the guts to admit that you made them wear female garments .. The outside world would punish them for it alot more than just getting a little spanking.lol Just one observation on the matter

Proprietrix -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 4:21:19 AM)
quote: As something of a Female Supremist, I've always wondered about the attraction to "humiliating or degrading a man" by feminizing him. I don't mean this as a put down to anybody's individual kink. But I've often seen feminization described as making a man into something "less" than a man. To my own particular (and admittedly peculiar) way of thinking, one does not make a man into something less than a man by making him into an imitation of something greater than a man, i.e. a Woman. As I've often put it, feminizing somebody like me is not degrading to me. It is, however, insulting to Femininity. It seems to me that you want to degrade a man, make him a dog, make him a horse, make him a piece of furniture. But don't make him into a mockery of a Woman. I'm curious about how others feel about this, particularly Dominant Women. I totally agree. Making a mockery of my clothing, my make-up, my accessories, and my gender, amuses me in no way at all and I find it patronizing and insulting on many levels. To me, the behavior is similar to the kids on the playground who will put on that one piece of clothing or enhance that one characteristic that sets an excluded child apart. (i.e. thick glasses) and then relentlessly tease the child. "Look, I'm little Johnny four eyes." Humiliating for the child doing the teasing? No way. They're totally enjoying themselves at the expense of another. I've run across a great deal of Female Supremists who agree with your statements. I'm not personally a Female Supremist, but I agree. Just sitting back watching; what I've seen is that no matter how well a Female Supremist articulates the idea of feeling mocked, people will either agree or they won't comprehend the concept at all. So maybe it's just one of those kinks/fets that just have to fall in the live and let live category.

WorshippingYou1 -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 5:09:44 AM)
I personally see feminization as very much a manifestation of the superiority of the Female; after all, imitation is the highest form of flattery. However, i can certainly see where Women may be dismayed at the parodies of ridiculously-attired more "flaming" men-as-women. For my part, i would consider it the highest of honors to present myself as closely as possible to the feminine form and i would do my best to do so in a most dignified fashion.

ServiceNTucson -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 9:19:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: novacaine Okay, so it's 5am & I hope this makes sense. As a card-carrying feminist, I do not like feminization-as-humilation. Feminization and cross dressing do little for me as it is, although I do not have a problem with it, but i have a big problem with the idea of humilating someone in that way. I know feminine doesn't mean female, nor doesn it mean woman, but I do not see it as a weakened state and I would not use it to humilate someone. It just makes me think--how do they see women? Do pumps and a wig make you feel like a woman? Does cleaning my house and being referred to by a female pronoun make you feel like a woman? This is very much my point. If a man sees being turned into a mockery of a Woman as making him something less than a man, what does that say about his opinion of women? At 6'1" tall and kind of ugly, I am very definitely a masculine person. Dressing me up, making me up, does not, in my humble opinion, flatter Women by making me into an imitation of one. It insults them by making me into a mockery of one.

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 9:46:24 AM)
I think this is an excellent topic, a wonderful question and a way that I have not seen "en femme" approached before. I am not into forced fem or feminization for the sake of humiliation. I think you are right, in that it makes a mockery of being a Lady. And all the boys who say they have to be dressed to feel submissive makes Me realize that they haven't broken that gender assumption that females are naturally submissive to males on the societal totem pole. So they are not only humiliated, but this is the only way they can submit. I have a friend who loves to cross dress and he is very passable when he does. We have a great time together. He is not humilated. He simply loves the feeling of the clothes and he will dress up at home, by himself, when he doesn't have his kids, and just sit and watch tv. It makes him feel good. This is the most likely reason I am not comfortable with the boys who have to be dressed and build their entire submission and thereby, a lifestyle, on wearing heels, lipstick and a wig. I would rather have a manly man ironing My clothes. Note to TeeGo: Love your new pic!

openmindedslave -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 4:45:23 PM)
You see now your getting into an issue about is really humilation or is it what the slave wants to have done to him..Humilation in any form is probably in the top 5 request Mistresses are asked to do with a sub...I am asking that as a question. So them if humilation is importain, than being femmed is just one of the many choices available.. I would be interested to know from the readers here, how many ( or what percentage ) have seeked you out and have stated an interest in humilation in play? Of those how many have suggested or actually did use femming as a form of humilation?

Proprietrix -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 5:51:23 PM)
quote: I am asking that as a question. So them if humilation is importain, than being femmed is just one of the many choices available.. Agreed (although it took me a few moments to figure out what you were saying.) There are numerous ways to humiliate a submissive male that have nothing to do with feminization. quote: I would be interested to know from the readers here, how many ( or what percentage ) have seeked you out and have stated an interest in humilation in play? Of those how many have suggested or actually did use femming as a form of humilation? I absolutely stand by my numbers that at least 95% of those who have saught me out, either directly asked for feminization or made it blatantly clear in their own profile that is what they were looking for. Most who have saught me out wanting "humiliation" were really looking to be femmed and didn't see the distinction between the two. I try to make very certain of the clarity between whether a sub is looking for humiliation or feminization. The first I will do (and well!), and the second I will not. If a submissive insists that it is truly humiliation they seek, they best be prepared because I will take it to a tear-jerking point, and never once have them don panties. They thought their mothers embarassed them in the grocery stores when they were teenagers? They don't know the half of it until they've heard my condescending tone.

cloudboy -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 6:02:53 PM)
Well, since the powers that be have driven Lola from the CMMBs, I'll try to step in and fill the gap. quote: But I've often seen feminization described as making a man into something "less" than a man. To my own particular (and admittedly peculiar) way of thinking, one does not make a man into something less than a man by making him into an imitation of something greater than a man, i.e. a Woman. As I've often put it, feminizing somebody like me is not degrading to me. It is, however, insulting to Femininity. Your question lies on false assumptions and misunderstanding. When dressing is used as a tool of humiliation (as opposed to say passing) the effect is: CHANGE ---- Man ---- from ----- male ---- to ---- sissy male. It is not: Change ---- Man into caricature of woman. ---- This is different from changing a male into a female: transexualism. This is different from Men impersonating females: Transvestism. Transvestism and Transexualism exist independent of FEMDOM and BDSM altogether. "Sissification" and "Forced feminization," though, rely on a DOM to devise the route of emasculation into sissy space --- hence men need guidance, control, rules, and someone to serve within a BDSM context as a sissy. Typically one becomes a maid. (I might point out a maid is more useful than a dog, horse, or piece of furniture as you suggested.) Once dressed, the male becomes awkward and dependent --- and often times aroused --- these three traits then are there for the grabbing, shaping, and use of the DOM. (I might point out that a man won't be nearly as stimulated if forced to become a dog, horse, or piece of furniture as you suggested.) I once served a DOM for three months as a sissy maid about 1-2 x a week. Oddly I really had not been into dressing for a long time when this opportunity opened up --- but I jumped at the chance because I really, really wanted to have this experience. In that time I became really adept at cleaning Mistress' House and keeping order, following rules, and otherwise undergoing training. What I liked about it was how INSANE IT WAS, me going into this sissy maid role. It just seemed CRAZY, but it was a great escape, and I became a blank slate for Mistress to draw upon. As for the Mistress, she for some odd reason liked a guy femmed up --- it gave her more hand to work with. She also enjoyed having an obedient servant who followed rigid eye contact and speech restrictions. In many ways, this women intiated me into BDSM. At about the 3 mo point, I broke it off because I wanted something more personal with a Mistress that objectified servitude. I still feel like I let her down, as she was getting quite used to having me "in-service." Nonetheless, I chose to break it off. My new Mistress is like most ladies. She's uninspired by thoughts of feminization --- and that was fine with me. I was glad to be masculine again. Nonetheless, we recently had a maid day, where I had to truss up, follow orders, and stay in role. What is humiliating about it goes into several levels: the difficulty in walking in high heels, being an enfemme male with male male manerisms and voice, and lastly, being overall dependent on my Mistress to guide me through the experience. For her, I think this gave her an idea of what it might be like to have a slave. (I've always told her she's not cut out for slaves because she's too fair minded and considerate -- and she's too interested in who she is with...) I think it would be an absurd extrapolation to deduce that my maid day and before that maid service --- in any way degraded women or feminity. Like I said upfront, such an assumption is ill-founded and the question therefore is a bad one. The better question is, what will a sub do for his FEMDOM? What can a FEMDOM do to reach inside her sub? Exploring traditional gender roles in this context is nothing but healthy role play, trust building, and discovery of one's self. This is a far cry from "degrading" feminity or women. In deference to the now departed Lola, I was tempted to use a pink font, but I'll just stick with something blackish and masculine for contrast. As a parting shot, I'm glad to not be as fetish driven as I was in my 20s. Now that I'm older, I actually have a great appreciation for bodies, the feel of body on body or hand on body, and as rule I see clothes as just getting in the way.

Jasmyn -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 8:02:35 PM)
cloudboy [sm=applause.gif] quote: "Sissification" and "Forced feminization," though, rely on DOM to devise the route of emasculation into sissy space Emasculation. Emasculate v. To castrate; deprive of masculine vigor. emasculation, emasculator n. Masculine adj. Of or pertaining to the male sex; male; the masculine gender. masculinity n. Deprive v. To take something away from; to keep from using, aquiring, or enjoying. deprivable adv. I don't see forced femme and sissification as making a mockery of women or femininity... what is 'feminine' but something deprived of having a 'masculine'? Women don't have the equivalent of 'emasculation', the male exists without the feminine, feminine is something that is not male/masculine. Masculine is strong, the opposite feminine is weak, the masculine is alpha, the opposite feminine is beta. If they're (f/f and sissification) making a mockery of anything, it is how fragile the notion of 'masculinity' is.

KalinaThorne -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 8:52:39 PM)
I do not use feminization/sissification to humilitate a submissive. For me it is another form of service - one of the ways they serve is by amusing me. It can be amusing to me to see a man barbied up - and while I use the "Barbie" term in a less than flattering way, humiliation is the wrong mindset in my book. While many men look perfectly rediculous in feminine attire, it is an excellent way to make the conciousness shift gears and appreciate what they are to me. I also see the mental gear shifting provided by wearing soft attire as sensitivity training and honoring the gentleness of the female spirit. I have long worn denim when I am doing work that requires strong fabric. I wear denim because it serves the purpose of the work I like to do. I wear sensual feeling undergarments underneath at times because this is another aspect of who I am. When I want a submissive to have that softness and explore the give of the position that enhances the take of my role, I find female clothing is very useful for some males. The feel of soft fabrics against my skin is very sensual to me, whether that is something I am wearing or something I am stroking with my hand while a submissive is wearing it. I find that allowing a sub to experience that sensuality oftens aids them in their desire to serve or be used in some of the ways I like. I do not force or humiliate anyone to wear something that they are not comfortable in, but I get pleasure from seeing a man's willingness to please me and oftentimes that is perceived as a feminine trait and the garments assist in the expression. Believe me when I say that the feminization is consentual and flattering to the submissive psyche in the way I practice honor of the female within. Just my thoughts on the subject and if a sub is in 'need' of humiliation, that is easily attainable in any number of ways without making a mockery of myself, women.or the feminine in either of us.

ServiceNTucson -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 9:04:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold I think this is an excellent topic, a wonderful question and a way that I have not seen "en femme" approached before. I am not into forced fem or feminization for the sake of humiliation. I think you are right, in that it makes a mockery of being a Lady. And all the boys who say they have to be dressed to feel submissive makes Me realize that they haven't broken that gender assumption that females are naturally submissive to males on the societal totem pole. So they are not only humiliated, but this is the only way they can submit. I have a friend who loves to cross dress and he is very passable when he does. We have a great time together. He is not humilated. He simply loves the feeling of the clothes and he will dress up at home, by himself, when he doesn't have his kids, and just sit and watch tv. It makes him feel good. This is the most likely reason I am not comfortable with the boys who have to be dressed and build their entire submission and thereby, a lifestyle, on wearing heels, lipstick and a wig. I would rather have a manly man ironing My clothes. Note to TeeGo: Love your new pic! Goddess, I quite agree with your assessment of those who need to be "forced" to cross dress in order to submit. I think the same also holds true of "male submissives" who insist on what sort of costuming a Domina wears when she's dominating him. To me, submission is about what She wants, what She enjoys. It's not about what She, or I, wear. (Unless, of course, what she or I wear is important to her, in which case, Her will be done.) As for your friend who enjoys cross dressing simply because he enjoys it, I not only have no problem with that, I fully support it.

ServiceNTucson -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 9:22:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Proprietrix I try to make very certain of the clarity between whether a sub is looking for humiliation or feminization. The first I will do (and well!), and the second I will not. If a submissive insists that it is truly humiliation they seek, they best be prepared because I will take it to a tear-jerking point, and never once have them don panties. They thought their mothers embarassed them in the grocery stores when they were teenagers? They don't know the half of it until they've heard my condescending tone. As a big fan of tear-jerking humiliation and degradation, I couldn't agree more. I've come to believe that the reason for male machismo act is to try to hide the fact just how vulnerable men are to Women. In fact, they are capable of crushing our egos and destroying us emotionally with almost no effort whatsoever.

sfogarty -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 9:50:17 PM)
So, caveats: I am: 1) A third-wave feminist (feminism as choice) 2) NOT a believer in female supremecy, male supremecy, or ascribing any broad trait to a group of people based on what is between their legs. 3) Genderqueer. That said, forced fem kind of wierds me out. It's a perfectly OK kink, but for me.... I wear skirts, I carry a purse, and I don't consider these to be necessarily associated with being a woman. So to see someone else take the same general activities (1) and make them into a kink.... I just can't wrap my head around it. It /certainly/ isn't humiliating for me, it's not a sexual thing, and so I have a hard time realizing that it's different for other people. (1) Very loosely.... I am not trying to appear as a woman. If I put on makeup, it's to look pretty, not to pass as a female. While I do get ma'am-ed, it's fairly obvious that I'm male after brief interaction.

ServiceNTucson -> RE: Feminization as humiliation? (4/12/2006 10:03:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jasmyn what is 'feminine' but something deprived of having a 'masculine'? Women don't have the equivalent of 'emasculation', the male exists without the feminine, feminine is something that is not male/masculine. Masculine is strong, the opposite feminine is weak, the masculine is alpha, the opposite feminine is beta. If they're (f/f and sissification) making a mockery of anything, it is how fragile the notion of 'masculinity' is. While I am always reluctant to argue with a Domina, I could not disagree more. A Woman is "deprived" because She doesn't have a penis? While it is true that there is no feminine equivalent to the word "emasculation," consider how blessed you are that there is also no feminine equivalent to the word "impotence." While the feminine equivalent to the word "emasculation" may not exist, the feminine equivalent to the emotion certainly does. What is the most often stated fear of women facing radical mastectomy? Answer: Loss of their femininity. The fact that there is no simple word for it, such as there is for the loss of masculinity, I would attribute to the same reason there there are literally hundreds of derogatory terms specific to women but few specific to men, i.e. the fact that language and culture have for too long been dominated by men. I would also disagree that the masculine exists without the feminine, outside of the aforementioned limits of language. Without the feminine, no male would ever have been born. And if masculine is strong and feminine is weak, then how is it that masculinity is so "fragile" and vulnerable to the feminine?

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