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RE: sadism V dominance - 6/14/2010 4:38:36 PM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I agree with Jeff's post. I believe it to be rather silly to equate that ever Dominant has Sadistic tendencies or that every Sadist has Dominant tendencies. The two are very different concepts that can co-exist very nicely. Unfortuanately, many are not able to make the distinction very well so they just lump them together.

To me this is very much like those that lump SM into sexuality. I believe that they do and can co-exist rather nicely but the don't equate having having one with the other. The distinction is rather evident for me when I have an SM scene with a Male or a female that I am not sexually attracted to.

I can very much be enjoy my sadistic aspects without being sexually aroused or have Dominance over the person. But... it is great when I am enjoying my Sadistic Pleasures, My Sexual Pleasures and my Dominant Pleasures all at one time!

I am soooooo glad you said this! I find this to be a wonderful explanation for My feelings on the matter.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 21

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/14/2010 7:35:52 PM

Andalusite

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Joined: 1/25/2009
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I played casually once with someone who felt that submission and bottoming were the same thing. When he blathered about how submissive I was, when I'd only bottomed to him, and argued with me when I disagreed, it really annoyed me. It was much the same as if he'd bragged how many orgasms I'd had when I hadn't come even once.

After that, I screened anyone I played with or dated for that approach, and generally avoided them. Too awkward! I've never felt dominant or submissive toward someone I haven't played with yet, but just play isn't sufficient for a dynamic. I can top and bottom to the same person for S/M and/or bondage, but so far, I haven't reacted with both dominance and submission toward the same person.

Unlike several other people who've posted on this thread, I've been in a couple of egalitarian kinky LTRs, where there was S/M but no overt power exchange. I leaned slightly dominant, and they enjoyed doing things to please me, but I didn't have the level of authority over them that I would need to have called them my submissive or slave. My femsub playpartner does do service-oriented things for me, and we connect on a D/s level, but again, I don't have the kind of power over her day-to-day life that I would need to consider her my submissive. She and I are not involved sexually or romantically, so I don't consider her to be my girlfriend or for it to be a poly relationship.

(in reply to StrongSpirit)

Post #: 22

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/14/2010 7:59:19 PM

MrRodgers

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Joined: 7/30/2005
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Another Internet borne question. These terms now have all become quite malleable.

(in reply to StrongSpirit)

Post #: 23

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/14/2010 11:09:11 PM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Or a third option......that being that sadism and dominance are valued components of the relationship from the off...with sadism being an essential expression of dominance.

A D/s relationship based purely on a service dynamic.....not so appealing....

Sadism detached from a D/s dynamic....yeah....may serve a need......but lacking it's context and reason for being.....

In terms of 'becoming synonymous'.....I think you can learn to be a dominant.....but not convinced you can learn to be a sadist....that sort of thing is either in you or it's not.

This is how my brain is wired. I've had S&M relationships with no D/s at all, and it felt that 'something' was missing.

I've had D/s relationships with no (or very little sadism), but with a 'punishment' focus to the pain play. Again, that didn't work for me.

As NG said so eloquently above, for me, there needs to be sadism within a D/s dynamic otherwise it feels like an incomplete relationship.

Of course everyone is different, but that's the view from this particular pain bunny

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 24

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/14/2010 11:56:10 PM

Nineveh

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I identify first as a sadist. However the need to be in charge is also ingrained in me quite deeply. The two are not completely intertwined, I can beat someone just the way she asks me to, and I can enjoy it. I can also control someone without inflicting any physical pain at all, and enjoy it very much. I do not use physical pain as a punishment because of how much I enjoy it, and if I am enjoying punishing a sub I am going to make excuses to find fault with her behavior and that is not the sort of dynamic I am looking for.

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 25

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/15/2010 4:53:09 AM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
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i think the thing is you can only really evaluate something after youve experienced different approaches enough times. i realise that actually i have probably been dating tops, predominantly, that is people who are sadistic but have no inherent desire or interest in Ds or Ms, bar one or two that is.

therefore my experience of Ds and Ms has, i realise, been limited to people who have accessed this for play purposes rather than Ds, which im guessing is why nothing has ever really worked for me. theyve either been way too sadistic for me and/or only vaguely on board with the Ds.

my shift in thinking is actually quite subtle, but so much has fallen into place thanks to you guys posting and just putting it down in black and white. you read this stuff in little snippets around the place and of course ive been aware that topping/bottoming, sadomassochism, BDSM, Ds and Ms are all separate but can be interchangeable.

it was just the realisation that there is this apparent plethora of Tops (lets call them) expounding on their sadistic capabilities. i realise now that sadism does not equate to a Ds or Ms Dominant and is why, maybe, so many people find themselves in situations where, as our resident pain bunny there put it, something was missing.

ive also come to realise that to some extent this is as much led and driven by the subs as it is the Tops and Doms. im not an all out masso at all, but there is something in me that needs some aspect of pain play. the subtle shift for me right now is that in giving myself in toto to do with as he like he gets a massive buzz from that - its not so much the activity, just that i have given him my submission. this sounds obvious, but believe me it isnt, or hasnt been for me. the shift is that it is my submission that flips his switch, not the activity - and that to me is the subtle difference and the thing ive been trying to get to grips with...., thanks. x

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to Nineveh)

Post #: 26

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/15/2010 5:02:16 AM

IronBear

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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Still trying to get my head around Tops and Bottoms other than the basic obvious. Not that it matters, I stay with what I prefer and am comfortable with M/s relationships. None of this regular negotiations and other stuff. The dynamic is simple and easy to maintain if you get the right girl. If a Master does it right he has no need to be sadistic because his girl wants to be pleasing anyway. Others see things differently which is just fine I only even speak for myself and my home and none other.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 27

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/15/2010 6:47:56 AM

Andalusite

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IB, in my opinion, spankings are for good subbies!

lally, I feel most focused in my submission when I do something I dislike, or take pain that I don't enjoy. I've had other submissive or slave women tell me it is connected to my masochism rather than my submission, but I don't feel that way when I bottom without power exchange. I don't need to feel that way every time, but if I never felt that way with a particular person, I don't think he would show up on my "Dominant" radar. I just can't feel submissive without it initially, and I do tend to need at least occasional reinforcement. I'm not disobedient without it, and I'm still willing to do nice things for my partner, but I just don't have that gut level "feeling controlled" mindset.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 28

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/15/2010 6:53:56 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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I heard that spanking was for Good subbies, but I don't deal with, have or ever had subbies so it sort of negates it don't you think?

< Message edited by IronBear -- 6/15/2010 6:54:22 AM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 29

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/15/2010 7:07:39 AM

Andalusite

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It was mostly tongue in cheek, rather than anything to do with D/s per se. In general, I enjoy pain play. I've only had it used in punishment twice, and it had some really weird effects on me. I've been so wired to focus on enjoying even "bad pain" for my partner that I tend to still get aroused or feel good on some levels even when it hurts much more than I like. That happened during punishment for a mistake I made, and I felt guilty every time I got aroused or felt masochistic during normal play for a couple of weeks afterward. That wasn't what he had intended, and I knew that on a rational level, but I felt just horrid.

I am not looking for a poly household (or any relationship at the moment, really), but I can see a lot of positive things about being in service the way you've described in some of your posts, and I happen to have most of the talents you've mentioned (though probably not to the level you would require). I specifically have an interest in the Victorian era, and have learned as much as I can about how the households were set up and such, so that aspect would be intriguing. I was a slave rather than a submissive in my last relationship, but my former Master's requirements and style are very different from yours.

Anyway, I'm amenable to punishment if it is required, but in general, I feel that pain play is better left as a positive thing, and I figure that if I am in service to someone, they can find ways to punish me that don't involve my masochism.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 30

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/15/2010 7:56:02 AM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

IB, in my opinion, spankings are for good subbies!

lally, I feel most focused in my submission when I do something I dislike, or take pain that I don't enjoy. I've had other submissive or slave women tell me it is connected to my masochism rather than my submission, but I don't feel that way when I bottom without power exchange. I don't need to feel that way every time, but if I never felt that way with a particular person, I don't think he would show up on my "Dominant" radar. I just can't feel submissive without it initially, and I do tend to need at least occasional reinforcement. I'm not disobedient without it, and I'm still willing to do nice things for my partner, but I just don't have that gut level "feeling controlled" mindset.

this has been my conundrum just recently - im also that way wired, or at least i have been, but im having to turn my thinking around a bit. the pleasure i give Him will be in the pleasure he gets from my submission, rather than my struggle to submit to difficult things (as was the case with previous partners). having said that he knows that i need to struggle to reach catharsis, so he will put me through big pain to reach that place where i will struggle and get that feeling you know im talking about but is hard to define

.

he identifies as a Dom not a sadist and is very clear about that but he is still capable of making me struggle if thats what i need - and thats the difference, the guys before werent really interested in what i needed and because they were sadists it didnt much matter in the end.

what i got hooked up on was the fact that since im not a lover of pain perse, yet i still need it on some level, i was better suited to a sadist than a non sadist because if i wasnt loving it and he wasnt loving it, what would be the point. i couldnt see how a non-sadist would enjoy hurting a sub to the point of tears and cathartic melt down.

i agree totally with what youre saying, that that intense struggle is when you feel most acutely submissive - for me it bashes down those walls of resistance and strength and strong personality that will froth and frolic all day long and take very little seriously or focus on much at all unless im pinned down once in a while and made to pay attention. pain gets my attention like nothing else i know and pushes me into a totally submissive frame. its about being taken, having it taken and by someone bigger and stronger than you who is powerfully determined to take you there.

its the reasons for taking you there that im curious about.

in a way its getting to the point more dramatically and dominantly than sitting around a table and discussing the whys and wherefores of why youre flipping about and not paying attention

. a hard spanking is more fun for everyone and far more effective IMO, but not as punishment, no - punishment is yukky

- the newbies can have that and are welcome to it.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 31

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/15/2010 8:50:07 AM

warlock1935

Posts: 66
Joined: 1/1/2004
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As some of the posters have said, for me in D/s relationships the relationship is more important than the play. In fact, I'm pretty sadistic, and yet in my Master/slave, 24/7 relationships I find I have to remind myself to play with my girl once a week or so, and incorporate rituals that include a short spanking a couple of times a day. The relationship itself is so erotic and satisfying to me that I don't feel the urge to play, although I enjoy it once I've started.

I do think play is important, though; I've found that if I don't play with a slave once a week or so, and play hard (AKA Challenger her) once in a while, slaves seem to start feeling something's missing and it starts to interfere with their headspace.

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 32

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/15/2010 10:11:13 AM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
so i suppose my question is, what comes first, how important is pain play to a Dominant and why. do you identify as a sadist or as a Dominant. was it youre desire to dominate or youre urge to explore BDSM with a consenting submissive that came first and are those two things so inextricably linked that its impossible to separate them.

As a practicing sadist, I love pain play. But ya know what, I like D/S more. D/S is at the heart of all that I do, pain and sadism is an extension of D/S, not the other way around. I tend to view TTTID (This Thing That I Do) as a tree with D/S forming the roots, M/S as the trunk and all other fetish play as the branches.I can switch off hard pain play (Let's face it, not that many women like to play to the extremes that I do. Even fairly hard core masochists have hit their limits with me.) but D/S is the air I breathe.
Example-A slut can't take the pain I dish out-no biggeee-this just means it's time to get imaginitive.
Switch up a bit. Take control of some areas of her life I have given to her, maybe remove a privilege or two. Limit her orgasms to something brutally drastic, watch her twist in the wind. Do more hard core breath play. Indulge in deeper levels of bondage. Use my knowledge of her to make her squirm, writhe, beg, grovel. Push other limits. No bathroom breaks at work. Do forced face fuck training. Dilate and widen her slave holes. Point out my control, point out how much she loves being forced despite her protestations. Have her crawl. Let her eat from a dog bowl only. Cage the cunt.You get the gist...

She's the world biggest ball of yarn and I am a kitten on a rampage.

This is an extension of who I am. As a kid, I liked playing verbal games, pushing, prodding, poking, keeping people off balance. I liked to get in people's pysche and find out what makes them tick, then twist and and stick needles in, watch how they react, learn something about who and what they really are underneath their surface mind. (Hence my involvement with hand to hand fighting. When ya skinny, loud mouthed and opinionated and your hobby is fucking with peoples heads, you best learn how to fight)./ D/S is a grown up version of the same thing, with some really wonderfully sick twists thrown in. It's about the heart and head, just sliding in and getting inside her skin till she trembles with fear, lust and delightful agony.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 33

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/15/2010 11:57:20 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

It was mostly tongue in cheek, rather than anything to do with D/s per se. In general, I enjoy pain play. I've only had it used in punishment twice, and it had some really weird effects on me. I've been so wired to focus on enjoying even "bad pain" for my partner that I tend to still get aroused or feel good on some levels even when it hurts much more than I like. That happened during punishment for a mistake I made, and I felt guilty every time I got aroused or felt masochistic during normal play for a couple of weeks afterward. That wasn't what he had intended, and I knew that on a rational level, but I felt just horrid.

I am not looking for a poly household (or any relationship at the moment, really), but I can see a lot of positive things about being in service the way you've described in some of your posts, and I happen to have most of the talents you've mentioned (though probably not to the level you would require). I specifically have an interest in the Victorian era, and have learned as much as I can about how the households were set up and such, so that aspect would be intriguing. I was a slave rather than a submissive in my last relationship, but my former Master's requirements and style are very different from yours.

Anyway, I'm amenable to punishment if it is required, but in general, I feel that pain play is better left as a positive thing, and I figure that if I am in service to someone, they can find ways to punish me that don't involve my masochism.

Excellently said lass. To continue with this analogy, puinishment with me is usually additional duties unless I find that I was in error and failed to give sufficient training or instructions. Once therefore we were in sync regards your masochistic side, that too could be explored totally seperately from any thoughts of punishment but rather in the form of joint entertainment and perhaps devient pleasures.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 34

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/16/2010 7:12:20 PM

Andalusite

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
im also that way wired, or at least i have been, but im having to turn my thinking around a bit. the pleasure i give Him will be in the pleasure he gets from my submission, rather than my struggle to submit to difficult things ...
what i got hooked up on was the fact that since im not a lover of pain perse, yet i still need it on some level, i was better suited to a sadist than a non sadist because if i wasnt loving it and he wasnt loving it, what would be the point. i couldnt see how a non-sadist would enjoy hurting a sub to the point of tears and cathartic melt down.

i agree totally with what youre saying, that that intense struggle is when you feel most acutely submissive ... its about being taken, having it taken and by someone bigger and stronger than you who is powerfully determined to take you there. its the reasons for taking you there that im curious about.

lally, for me, I also get a lot from serving and feeling useful, and giving my partner pleasure, but I still need that initial yielding to be aware of them in a submissive way. Otherwise, they just don't show up on my radar as Dominant. It's not exactly the struggle or catharsis, though both are hot, since I can have both happen without submission occuring. I can enjoy the pain and the tears on some level even without submission (though not usually to the same degree). I suppose a non-sadist could enjoy making a submissive struggle and cry if it turned her on, but I agree that it tends to break down the feedback loop.

Warlock, I agree that I need S/M play fairly regularly in order to be happy in a relationship. I don't necessarily need the really heavy catharsis or struggle all that often, though it can be really hot, but it reinforces my submissive headspace when it occurs.

IB, you're much too far away, but I have a great deal of respect and admiration for the way you run your household. Yours is one of the relatively few M/s dynamics that have been mentioned on the boards where I feel, "I could be happy in a situation like that!" Power, clear expectations and communication, some degree of flexibility and customising the dynamic to work with the individual slave are all important to me.

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 35

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/16/2010 7:46:22 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Yes that bloody Pacific Duck Pond gets in the way doesn't it? Need a faquing walloping big bridge to be built or the starship enterprise moored over head to beam people up from the US and pop them down in Aussie or visa versa..

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 36

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/22/2010 9:09:15 AM

LittleTom

Posts: 2
Joined: 5/7/2010
Status: offline

Dominance most definitely does not equal Sadism. The two are distinct and separate, but often are performed together.

I can be dominant by asking someone to perform a task. That task can be as mundane as requesting a cup of tea, and last I checked, making tea generally doesn't hurt. Dominance for me is about exploring anothers wish to give up control. Dominant sex can be about my relaxing and making the other work very very hard, but at something that requires anything but pain on their part.

Where the grey begins to seep in is that control often means avoiding pain. If I get someone to accept pain, then that is an expression of their submission.

However, I have met dominant masochists, and submissive sadists. The later was a lovely girl who would not hurt a fly of her own initiative. Indeed, she abhorred violence. Yet she took great pleasure in being told to cause another pain.

(in reply to StrongSpirit)

Post #: 37

RE: sadism V dominance - 6/26/2010 9:27:04 AM

BootSadist

Posts: 25
Joined: 1/11/2009
Status: offline

I must agree with many posters here. Dominance is not the same as Sadism, even if you can have both tendencies or just one, it may seem the same but it's not the same, just like Coke and Pepsi and that's a challenge to some to tell them apart.

Dominance can be "proven" or more likely, expressed and materialized through the aspect of trust, and what greater trust than a Sub who allows his/her body for the master's pleasure and proves its will to serve, no matter what the task, by taking on the discomfort, the pain.

That is not to say Master's need that proof of devotion. i don't need nobody licking my boots or letting me beat him or her up to prove it, just as they don't need to spend all day doing chores, I simply find their sincerity materialized through their actions, service or not.

Sadists, on the other hand, and I identify in myself a Sadist who is Dominant too, enjoy pain for sexual input, more so than for the actual meaning of trust and surrender, so it's a different thing, so i agree that there are many Tops, but few Dominants, and that you can be a Sadistic Dominant or a Dominant Sadist, but you can't be a Sadist purely and that to award someone the title of Dominant, he should prove himself to be above such doubts and dualities.

(in reply to LittleTom)

Post #: 38

RE: sadism V dominance - 7/2/2010 11:41:12 AM

LoveAndDS

Posts: 39
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline

Sadism = Pain

Dominance = Obeying

I'm going to rough guess and say that 95% of people who say that their into this lifestyle don't have a clue what it's really about. If your into rough sex and spanking, that's great, but it doesn't mean that your into D/s.

(in reply to StrongSpirit)

Post #: 39

RE: sadism V dominance - 7/2/2010 11:48:36 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

My owner is more interested in the D/s...M/s dynamic - the overall relationship and being the leader of it, than he is about S&M play. He wanted a good woman who would submit to him in all areas of the relationship. Bedroom fun is icing on the cake.

I am very much like this describes. I can be very sadistic and enjoy it very much. However, I do not need to get that out of a relationship. What I do need in a relationship is to be the dominant partner.

For me, relationship would wither and die if I was not the dominant one. I could spend the rest of my life happily if I could not ever inflict pain on my relationship partner/s. I just happen to enjoy when the two co-exist. Not necessary but a nice bonus.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 40

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