RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities?

RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (Full Version)

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LegionEtrangere -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/15/2006 4:18:54 AM)
My dear fellow, Most of the anglo saxon population of the UK have a claim to the throne,albeit distant. The Stuarts being somewhat arrogant family,rarther rubbed people up the wrong way. One civil war was caused by the Scottish pillocks and two further inserections. True they have a legitimate claim to the throne after the demise of the welsh Tudor family dynasty,on the death of Elizabeth 1st. The Dutch Duke William of Orange and later Hanoverian monarchs like the four king Georges were impossed upon the British nation. The people had no say because no true democracy then existed.The celtic peoples of the british isles where civilised and warlike even before the Roman invasions. They defeated the first attempt made by Julius Ceaser. After the romans left,germanic peoples began to settle and intermarry with the celts. Later scandinavian peoples. Britain became a nation 1000 years ago. There have been many civil wars,rebellions,revolts excetera. The rise of Britain has the worlds leading power started during the reign of elizabeth 1st and terminated during the reign of elizabeth 2nd. Between the 2 elizabeths. HIstorical and archaeological evidence tells us that the scots were originally irish and the irish originally scots.This came about after mass cross migrations. Both nations,like the welsh,and those of the english county of cornwall, or celts. Each have the same traditions,similier folk songs,different versions of the bagpipes. The scots and irish were never concoured by the romans. During the stuart rebellions,most scottish clans,including highland clans,supported the union of england and scotland, and the status quo of the Hanoverian monochy. The scottish stuarts and the german hanoverians were and still are cousins. Today though, the british monarchy is just a constitutional figurehead monarchy with no real power. It is increasingly irrelivant in the lives of most British people. With the European Union is becomming a series of subject states subsummed by the whole. National governments having increasingly less say in their own internal affairs. European Monarchies will be extinct within 2 generations. There may well be a king Charles the 111(King Chuck the Turd) but it is unlikely there will be a King William the VI. Both of chuck the turds sons are now/will soon be,serving as officers in active service combat units of the British Army. Unlike many other countries,where the rich avoid war. The british ruling classes have a tradition of military service,leading from the front and exposing themselves to danger,alongside their men. That is why many of them die during wars.

UtopianRanger -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/15/2006 4:38:15 AM)
quote: P.S. This is all in good fun. I have always enjoyed your posts. Please don't take my assertive debate style, as harshness. Are you kidding me? No matter the content....I read and write with the biggest grin every single day. It's good entertainment watching a few elevate their heart rate over a few paragraphs, which represents nothing more sinister than a dissenting opinion. I give you credit though...for hanging tough with a handful of dudes who've been on this planet twenty years longer than you.[;)] quote: Well I ended up deciding to stay at home for school, which thrilled my foster parents to no end, and when graduation came, as a reward I got a very nice, brand new BMW. It's bad ass to be sure ... probably far more than I'm worth as a daughter ... and it's made in Germany. Now, I have nothing against Germany or German cars. I think every single person in Germany should own one!!! There's no shame in owning/driving a BMW. Hell.... I grew up in the Beamer capital of the US.{ Marin County, California} There's more BMW's there than there is in Munich! And they're as American as apple pie with ice cream. quote: So, to me ... a Hummer is a much better choice for an American, than a BMW, or even a Honda Civic. Completely disagree. While the steel body panels and the larger parts connected with the drive train may be produced in America, the plastic panels, water pump, alternator, distributor, HEI, and many of the other ''accessory'' type parts, all come from Mexico or China's exploited labor market. So in reality, I don't know if you could really make a good argument that purchasing a Hummer would be much more ''American'' than say a Honda - {Some of which models are manufactured in the US} - Very subjective. quote: I do have one question though, and it seems to be the one that all the pro-service people are avoiding. How will we pay for it? Two years of service would add eleven million people to the government payroll. That's eleven million more paychecks for the goverment to cut, every year. Some have given answers like "other countries do it", but that isn't really an answer. Those examples are small countries, and the numbers are not so frightening. So, since you are for it, get out your calculator, multiply 30K (wages, upkeep, training, logistics, etc ...) by eleven million (330 billion dollars, by the way), and tell us what programs you would cut that would raise that kind of money? Lets go on the cheap, and not pay these people at all ... just provide upkeep, training, logistics, etc ... We should be able to get away with 10K a year per person for that. That's only 110 billing dollars a year. What a great deal!!!! Please let us know what programs you are going to cut, that will equal that kind of money. I've worked with budgets and balance sheets my entire life. You're asking me to constrain /cut spending to make room for a pilot program? I guess I don’t understand what the big deal is? Unlike what we have today, I wouldn’t be subdued by special interests. Anyone could do this. So just to point out a few cuts I would make to free up revenue : * I'd abolish the Internal Revenue Service and much of the bureaucracy which surrounds the Treasury Department. I'd move to a single or double tier value-added tax system. No more filing, audits, enforcement or police actions. With a value-added system, the chances of evading are greatly diminished. Not only that, but even non-citizens and tourist would have to pay in. * I'd gut the border patrol and militarize the border, just like most every other country. The military would have a two fold mission : Defend the country and guard the border. * I'd cut the justice department by twenty percent by turning low level drug crimes into infractions instead of felonies and misdemeanors. This would greatly diminish the need for public defenders, judges, prosocutors and court staff. It would also cut down the inmate population substantially. * I'd cut government employees wages by twenty percent. I'd make all future pay raises/ increases commensurate with the current state of the economy. In other words, when the economy is in a state of decline/slump, that means the revenue stream is much smaller. So like private industry, the workers receive no pay increases until the economy is better. * I’d abolish all types of corporate welfare – That would pay for the pilot program by itself. * The biggest move I would make would be two-fold: Completely cut our dependency on foreign energy and move to a more isolationist position regards the Geo-political landscape. This would drastically decrease our propensity for war, thus reducing military expenditures. - R

Moloch -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/15/2006 5:16:23 AM)
Smacks both ArtCatDom and Iron bear upside the head You crazy bastards make up your mind do you want to breed with the enemy clans , kill each other , fight for the throne ,kill your cousins or drink and fight, you guys cant be doing all of the above at the same time!!! shudders Why the hell did England keep you crazy bastards aroud? Oh I remmember now they need real men for their army.

MadameDahlia -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/15/2006 5:24:49 AM)
I don't feel that any individual should be forced into the military. Some people are pacifists, and have no interest in injuring another person - let alone holding a gun up to kill another. And I certainly don't feel that everyone in the United States should even be responsible for a gun, let alone the safety of an entire group of people -- people who may actually want to be in the military. I don't think that certain people are fit for military service. And I'm not just talking about those who are presently unsuited to military service either physically or mentally. Obviously those who can't physically serve or those who couldn't pass a psych evaluation if you gave them the answers ought to be excluded. I'm talking about the people who have repressed psychosis from a nasty childhood just waiting to flare to life the moment someone starts yelling in their face. I'm talking about the people who, in a fight or flight situation, would pick one and run with it to an extreme... either going AWOL or shooting anything that moved because paranoia had set in. And I'm talking about the men and women who would just be completely pissed off beyond all belief that they'd been hauled from their home, dragged overseas, thrust into the fray and told to go defend a nation that failed to defend their right to say, "go screw yourself... I'm not going!" These people have no business watching the backs of those who actually signed up for the job. They shouldn't be given a chance to do something dumb... like get themselves or others killed because they can't or won't follow directions when and where they're told to do so. If anyone thinks that any of these people could actually benefit the military in any fashion I want to know what that person has been taking or what stories they are being told. Because they've been fed a great big steaming pile. You get someone who doesn't know the trigger from the safety and hand over a gun... I think I may - just maybe - be able to get to five before they've taken out an eye or punctured a vital organ, maybe even one or two of their own. But if that's what people want... write to congress... tell them to arm the incompetent. Tell them to draft the dense. Oh and don't forget to have them enlist the pissed. See how well that all goes over. As for other countries doing it... well goodie. If other countries decided to wear potato sacks as hats do you think Bloomingdale's should start carrying them as designer wear? Give me a break. And do people even really think that the concept works any better in these other countries that mandate military service? Do people really think that each and every person in these countries signs up with a smile on his (possibly her) face? I've got a friend from Korea who was terrified of leaving America to go home after having finished his studies here. He even contemplated getting married to someone in order to stay... to stay in a country where he could decide if he wanted to serve in the military or not. He also knew that if he didn't go back and enlist he would never see his mother or father again - because the next time he went back to see them he wouldn't be allowed to leave the country. He'd be asked to enlist. And if he refused he'd be jailed. Yeah... looks like it works great for other countries. I can definitely see why we ought to implement the practice here.

MistressDREAD -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/15/2006 5:34:08 AM)
Service to Home and Country comes from the heart and is an Honor. Ive never needed anyone to force anyone in My Family from My Great Granfather down to My self or My Sons to serve the Home and Country of Our Living. Service of Citizenship starts in the Home and is integrity taught starting with the parents just like respect for rule and regulation. However having said this, and because I know with in the Country I live now there is widespread discord for all Americans duty in My eyes, I agree that either more able bodied Americans need to commit to the Countrys security with in the armed forces that are suppose to be manned to fight abroad or We will continue to feel the worlds woes of terrorism here at home as Our Own Homes forces the National Guards are sent away to assist Our abroad forces {Airforce,Army,Navy,Marines}in the wars at hand with no viable replacements to choose from. I feel there should be a draft of all able body Americans across the board if We are going to continue to want and enjoy the safe and free life here that We all have come to know and sometimes forget to appreciate. Freedom comes at a price and one I would prefer to gain at the door of another and not America's door. JMO Heres a thought: Why not make one of the rules to enter and become a citizen of this country service to the country say for three years? With Millions trying to get to the land of the free and home of the brave why cant the powers that be show those who tempt to gain what We have here just what it is that needs to be done in order to keep such freedom for all. I mean when a person says they pledge aleagance to a Our flag shouldent those words mean something ? quote: I read and write with the biggest grin every single day Oh yea I wanna see that grin head cut off Ranger. ~wink~ Oh yea and one more note: As for funding, People from other countries have been comming to the USA for over a hundred years working on temp details, some for years for private industry and pay into a system in taxes and revenue that is never NEVER gained back by such people when they return home to their own countries. My Own Father worked in sugar cane fields here in the USA and payed into a system for 40 years He never was allowed to collect from apon retirement or yearly in filing taxes as Americans do but payed into it as a single person none the less.Times that with the millions who come here to the USA yearly legally to do much the same thing for a earning. An amount of money many Im sure dont think about but the government knows full well it holds. Im sure funding of any forces for the protection of this country could be had easily, and this is just one sample of hidden funds in this Country.

IronBear -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/15/2006 5:50:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moloch Smacks both ArtCatDom and Iron bear upside the head You crazy bastards make up your mind do you want to breed with the enemy clans , kill each other , fight for the throne ,kill your cousins or drink and fight, you guys cant be doing all of the above at the same time!!! shudders Why the hell did England keep you crazy bastards aroud? Oh I remmember now they need real men for their army. I'm figuring that you refer to the Scottish and Irish blood lines??? If so, originally the Scots were one of the seven Kingdoms of Ireland called Scotia Minor where as ireland was Scotia Major (have read a few learned debates about the names but according to my reading it is correct.. It virtually all went to hell in a shit bucket when the Druids cursed the Throne of Tara.

Moloch -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/15/2006 5:54:31 AM)
Druids cursed the Throne of Tara? Hmm sounds interesting please do tell me more of this.

MistressDREAD -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/15/2006 5:55:15 AM)
asks shyly to Iron Bear~~ was Tara a Woman ?

Moloch -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/15/2006 6:07:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD asks shyly to Iron Bear~~ was Tara a Woman ? I dont know about that , but I do know that back in those days both sexes were pretty much treated equally.

UtopianRanger -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/16/2006 2:48:07 AM)
quote: I don't feel that any individual should be forced into the military. Some people are pacifists, and have no interest in injuring another person - let alone holding a gun up to kill another. And I certainly don't feel that everyone in the United States should even be responsible for a gun, let alone the safety of an entire group of people -- people who may actually want to be in the military. Absolutely - That's why I also mentioned some type of civil service position or fruit picking job. I know you're not fond of the military. LOL! Believe me... I'm the last person who wants to see our young people used as an instrument to quadruple the stock options for defense contractor CEO's. LMAO! I just think a two or three year structured program of government service would be beneficial to those coming out of high school with no idea what they want to do or self-discipline to do it in the first place. Seriously.... you wouldn't believe what it does in long run for young people in structured environment, who have to shit, shower, shave and be out the door before 6:00 am every morning for a couple years. - R

LadiesBladewing -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/16/2006 4:15:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnockerBockers It has been a while since the draft. We have always lived in a violent society but it has become far more so since the draft ended. Should all able bodied men and women be made to serve 3 years in the service and 3 years in the reserve,as a part of the right of Citizenship? Defending one's nation should be a noblis oblige and a right of passage. Who agrees/disagrees? For myself, I don't think compulsory -military- service should be the rule. There are some who are truly not suited to military service, and yet have outstanding contributions to make to the world. Some people are protectors, others are nurturers, and still others build societal bonds through creativity and art (and yet, put them on the far side of a rifle, and you might traumatize them to the point where the special contributions that they are here to make would be damaged beyond recognition.) On the other hand, I -do- believe that our young people should be required to spend some time in -some- form of community service. In general, our young people aren't required to do -anything- to support the community that they live in. Some individuals require it of their own seedling humans, but many are too busy to worry about the young people they've borne, much less worry about whether those kids understand the complexities of living in a hive society and taking care of the elements thereof. When I was in high-school (I went to a parochial school), in order to graduate, we were required to spend 6 hours a week in our Junior and Senior years doing -some- form of community service. You could choose from just about anything from JROTC to volunteering in the local nursing home, to organizing the roadside cleanups... but you had to do -something- in order to graduate that was beneficial to the community. It was 50% of our Community, Government and Ethics grade. It wouldn't be unreasonable to have that kind of requirement be a part of our young peoples' lives -- it would be good for them, and good for our community as a whole. Lady Zephyr

IronBear -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/16/2006 4:28:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moloch Druids cursed the Throne of Tara? Hmm sounds interesting please do tell me more of this. Tara was the seat of the High King of ireland and Ibelieve he refused to punish some one who had pissed the Druids off so their leader cursed Tara and the kinddoma failed. The stone of scon which is beneath the throne in which the British monach is crowned. It is said to make a noise if the wrong person is being crowned but it also makes the Monach see themselves as they really are. I'd really need to do some reading to get everything accurate so this is what I remember fron a long time ago...I have an idea that about this time the legendary Harp of Tara dissapeared. It was said to sing is any came near it but the true owner...... Much of Irish history is mixed with folk laws. However and totally off the subject, I enjoy making scrolls etc using 9thC Irish calligraphy and illuminating them in the style of the fabled Book of Kells....

incognitoinmass -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/16/2006 4:34:08 AM)
Service should be required. Alternative choices should be available for those who conscientiously object to defending their country.

david3000 -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/16/2006 4:41:42 AM)
how come only guys have to register for the draft? way to conform to gender stereotypes...like i dont have better things to do than die in your mismanaged wars.

MadamShy -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/16/2006 6:30:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: david3000 how come only guys have to register for the draft? way to conform to gender stereotypes...like i dont have better things to do than die in your mismanaged wars. its not sterotypes Woman can carry children they get pregnant .... so hence they can not be on the front line or in danger as they could get pregnant and indanger the life of the child to be Now .. ... I served... .... I am female... but I do still believe in a free country so ... I don't belive in forced service .. if someone loves there country enough .. they will serve to protect it the problem is .. this war is Not ours and thats why no one wants to serve in it.

ArtCatDom -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (4/17/2006 3:11:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moloch Smacks both ArtCatDom and Iron bear upside the head You crazy bastards make up your mind do you want to breed with the enemy clans , kill each other , fight for the throne ,kill your cousins or drink and fight, you guys cant be doing all of the above at the same time!!! shudders Why the hell did England keep you crazy bastards aroud? Oh I remmember now they need real men for their army. Hey! We CAN do all those things at once! And as far as breeding, remember the ENglish did try to breed us out ... just ended up giving us more Scotsmen. ;) meow

BamaD -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/21/2007 9:14:04 PM)
First a one or two year draft is a waste by the time you get them trained and enough experiance to funtion they are out. Second any serious attempt to reinstate the draft (except as an attempt to engage in class warfare as Charlie Rangel has done) would, as stated before , be political suicide. Third Throughout history unless facing odds of at least four to one professional armies have defeated conscript armies (don't bother there is an exception to every rule). Fourth (from Robert Hienlien) don't make military service a requirement of citizenship but a prerequisit for it. No verterns card you don't vote if you don't vote you can't run for office. All volunter, if they want to be a full citizen they enlist.

littlesarbonn -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/21/2007 9:22:41 PM)
I'm a military veteran, and I say no. I think service of any type should be encouraged, but even that I don't feel should be compulsory or mandatory. Part of the problem I have with it is that my philosophy believes we form a nation around the idea of cooperation and living as we desire without causing harm to others. Compulsory service puts the government above the people, and I feel that a government should exist in a construct where it allows those who criticize and disagree with the current government to be as comfortable as those who are on the opposite spectrum. You can't foster that attitude with forced conscription, which is a nationalism that really, really bothers me.

Invictus754 -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/21/2007 9:36:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnockerBockers It has been a while since the draft. We have always lived in a violent society but it has become far more so since the draft ended. Should all able bodied men and women be made to serve 3 years in the service and 3 years in the reserve,as a part of the right of Citizenship? Defending one's nation should be a noblis oblige and a right of passage. Who agrees/disagrees? Everyone should be required to serve a 4 year conscription after high school, THEN go to college. Even handicapped (not mentally) can serve in legal, intel analysis, finance, and religious services...not everyone has to be able-bodied to serve. If everyone served, I would guess that everyone would tell their representatives to use every means possible to avoid war. Not many say "send me! send me!" And this stupid "pre-emptive" Iraq war was the worst blot on the American people's integrity since we tried to invade Cuba. Dubya should be impeached as a war criminal. And before someone accuses me of being unpatriotic, I served four years in the 2nd Armor Division-522nd MI battalion. Who else here on this board offering their opinion has served their country?

TheHeretic -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/21/2007 9:56:42 PM)
I would probably support some variety of mandatory national service, but I would still prefer a volunteer military. And since we are doing a roll call now, yes, I served. (Kinda sad to see all those who aren't around anymore when these old threads get pulled back up. I miss Iron Bear's contributions.)

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