RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (Full Version)

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CuriousLord -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/21/2007 10:05:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnockerBockers

It has been a while since the draft. We have always lived in a violent society but it has become far more so since the draft ended. Should all able bodied men and women be made to serve 3 years in the service and 3 years in the reserve,as a part of the right of Citizenship? Defending one's nation should be a noblis oblige and a right of passage. Who agrees/disagrees?


I utterly hate the notion that, should such a law pass, one such as myself would be torn away from research to perform a relatively mundane task.  Nonetheless.. it is.. a noble idea?  It strikes me as horrific, the idea that bright minds would lose some of their most clear-minded years to vulgar service  Though, such would satisfy some notion of "fairness" to many.  And, in the end, service men and women are in demand.

It's a hard call, really.  Right now, so long as individuals can be attracted to the service through voluntary means, despite the understanding of likely being called on for extended tours- then this isn't necessary.  However, it may start becoming necessary.

I fear what may become of this nation if we should become so apathetic towards service that we trust our nation's defense to lawyers and diplomats who can only threaten UN santactions.



Honsoku -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/21/2007 10:44:26 PM)

All gripes about the current war(s) and administration aside;

Truly mandatory military service I would say no to. I find that idea smacks of totalitarianism. Though I could see a Heinleinesque model where voting privileges and the like required military service (or an acceptable substitute). On top of work ethic, honor, etc there is another very important concept that military service can provide; namely the ability to put group needs before individual needs/wants. I think that this is a very valuable mindset to have amongst the voting population as it should keep at bay the tendency for people to vote themselves bread and circuses.

Another good reason for the idea is that this model would put a price on the ability to vote, thus giving it some level of value. As a general rule people do not respect what they are given for free. Making the ability to vote come with a price would hopefully lead people to treat voting more seriously (instead of just stumbling in drunk on election day and checking off the candidate that you think has the best name). This benefit would be missed if service was mandatory.

Do I personally want this to happen? I think would be interesting to try, though there would undoubtedly be unforeseen ramifications.



domiguy -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/21/2007 10:58:51 PM)

Maybe more people would show their patriotism by voting if the gov't would offer something like free tuition in exchange?



Honsoku -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/22/2007 12:00:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Maybe more people would show their patriotism by voting if the gov't would offer something like free tuition in exchange?


More people would definitely vote (until they had all the education they cared for). Unfortunately, cost/benefit is in the wrong order. Voting is now the cost and not the benefit. Voting quality would probably decrease as people would go in to vote just for the tuition. On the other had, this might have a better long term effect of increasing the general level of education. If education was positively correlated with voting quality, then this might work (after all correlation does not equal causation). Though with all the free tuition floating around the price of education would almost certainly rise to compensate.

The problem with bribing people to vote is an issue of effort vs. reward. Voting can range from extremely easy to very effort intensive. If a person can get away with something easy (uninformed voting) in return for something valuable (tuition or whatever) than those who don't value voting in and of itself will take the easy route. Voting is now the means to an end for them. If the order is reversed and something valuable is required in exchange for voting, the people who choose to pay will generally have a psychological investment in making the most out of what they have acquired. Of course the purpose of voting being a reward is based on the idea that there is such a thing as voting quality; that informed, thoughtful voters will make better decisions.



farglebargle -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/22/2007 3:54:18 AM)

I didn't read all 6 pages, but....

They gotta do UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE if they expect a socialist scheme like this to work.




pollux -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/22/2007 9:20:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       I would probably support some variety of mandatory national service, but I would still prefer a volunteer military.

      And since we are doing a roll call now, yes, I served.


(Kinda sad to see all those who aren't around anymore when these old threads get pulled back up.  I miss Iron Bear's contributions.)


+1

I pulled up this oldy moldy thread and had the same thought...  John Warren too.  I didn't always agree with him but he always had something valuable to contribute.



Owner59 -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/22/2007 9:42:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnockerBockers

It has been a while since the draft. We have always lived in a violent society but it has become far more so since the draft ended. Should all able bodied men and women be made to serve 3 years in the service and 3 years in the reserve,as a part of the right of Citizenship? Defending one's nation should be a noblis oblige and a right of passage. Who agrees/disagrees?



I`m for this,and for both men and woman.

I heard Al Frankin talk about this years ago.

He talked about having a choice of 1)two years in the military,or you could 2)opt for a 3 year  civilian service program.This way,someone wouldn`t be forced to kill,or help kill.They could tend to sick veterines,or help fight forest fires,or any number of important things.



Peace



popeye1250 -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/22/2007 11:17:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnockerBockers

It has been a while since the draft. We have always lived in a violent society but it has become far more so since the draft ended. Should all able bodied men and women be made to serve 3 years in the service and 3 years in the reserve,as a part of the right of Citizenship? Defending one's nation should be a noblis oblige and a right of passage. Who agrees/disagrees?


I utterly hate the notion that, should such a law pass, one such as myself would be torn away from research to perform a relatively mundane task.  Nonetheless.. it is.. a noble idea?  It strikes me as horrific, the idea that bright minds would lose some of their most clear-minded years to vulgar service  Though, such would satisfy some notion of "fairness" to many.  And, in the end, service men and women are in demand.

It's a hard call, really.  Right now, so long as individuals can be attracted to the service through voluntary means, despite the understanding of likely being called on for extended tours- then this isn't necessary.  However, it may start becoming necessary.

I fear what may become of this nation if we should become so apathetic towards service that we trust our nation's defense to lawyers and diplomats who can only threaten UN santactions.


I think it was Marshall Petain who said; "Indespensable men?"
"The cemetarys are full of indespensable men!"

There were I'm sure fathers who thought that due to their station in life, their sons shouldn't have to join the Military but go to college instead on a deferment during Vietnam.

And then there was Ted Williams of the Boston Redsox.



MasDom -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/25/2007 4:02:33 PM)

Give me a government thats not completely retarded ,and i,ll think about it.



Sinergy -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/25/2007 5:49:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

He talked about having a choice of 1)two years in the military,or you could 2)opt for a 3 year  civilian service program.This way,someone wouldn`t be forced to kill,or help kill.They could tend to sick veterines,or help fight forest fires,or any number of important things.



I dont agree with it being mandatory.  Somebody wants to live in a hovel in the mountains in Montana and howl at the moon, far be it from me to say he/she/it should not have that right.

On the other hand, I agree with this sort of a program (military or other non-military public service) as a prerequisite for voting privileges, or more importantly, the right or ability to run for political office.

Things that are free lack intrinsic value.  Giving everybody the ability to alter their countries future is a huge power, and if it is given to everybody without said person having to earn the privilege, it becomes a worthless privilege.

I am with Heinlein on this one.  Do something that proves one puts the body politic ahead of one's personal survival and I will be the first to agree that this person should be allowed the privilege to vote and hold a public office.  Somebody who has paid in blood and sweat and tears for that privilege will not stand idly by and not make use of it either.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

edited played -> paid.



MasDom -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/25/2007 6:03:10 PM)

Could I be allowed to bring personal armoments,
and vehicals?
 Cause if I had to go, I want a tank and a mini gun.



Sinergy -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/25/2007 6:48:58 PM)

I dont care what you bring.

I will do my service in a non-military branch, such as postulated by Heinlein.

Which is weird, because I teach full-contact self-defense, but I am a non-violent pacifist.

The joy of being a Zen Taoist is I dont have to think about it, and I can live a weird
contradiction.

Sinergy



michaelOfGeorgia -> RE: Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizenship responsibilities? (7/25/2007 6:49:40 PM)

quote:

Should Compulsory Military Service be a part of Citizen...


no



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