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RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 12:42:20 PM   
Glasgow


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Joined: 6/7/2010
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quote:

Do you think that clarification was worthwhile?


Yes

< Message edited by Glasgow -- 6/17/2010 12:43:01 PM >

_____________________________

I wash my hands of this weirdness.

(in reply to Plasticine)
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RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 1:30:02 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KariCloud
That said, there is absolutely benefit to not telling the motivations to something until afterwards, as someone else said, because it can make it easier to do what is asked without being so self-conscious. A similar example with me would be teaching me to dance to help me feel more confident about what I consider to be a clumsy, ungraceful body. I really can't dance, and I've never dared try. It's not something I could ever do for myself. If I was told the exercise was for me and not for my partner's pleasure, I'd be unable to do it. Telling me afterwards, if that is the reason why, is a better idea if the person wants me to actually do what is asked of me. Of course while I understand that logically, I'd still be miffed about it. :D

I certainly agree with the larger point that disclosure is not always the best course of action. There's a reason they say "it's lonely at the top". Those who have actually been in command positions know that reason. For me personally, I default to keeping Carol in the loop on why commands are being given or not given but it's just a default, not an iron rule.

For Carol and I though, whether a command is for my benefit or hers would be totally irrelevant. It is a command. She obeys or she is released. Whether or not my motivation for a command resonates with her or not the expectation of absolute obedience remains.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to KariCloud)
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RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 2:34:56 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

What you did, I would call mentoring.

I think it's good that you explained. She's got self esteem issues and the idea of doing it for her sake is novel to her. Expect her to not believe it for a bit.

Any idea why your friend said you should be keeping secrets?


Thank you and no.  The person in question is professionally a psychiatrist and has more than a passing interest in these matters.  I imagine that it relates to control, but its just sort of ... not my style I guess.  I was just wondering if anyone saw the benefit?



It seems apparent from your other thread that you have some odd belief that control is equal to manipulation and dishonesty and maybe your friend has that fallacy as well. It's possible you are putting way too much thought into d/s and bdsm. We don't differ from other human beings in that vulnerability and honesty lead to intimacy and tend to be fantastic motivators which lend themselves to wanting to follow the person that exercises them. Manipulate me and get caught and I will do nothing other than not trust you and find you incredibly childish, be honest with me and allow yourself to be human and vulnerable and I will be more likely to follow and desire to please. Control can be out of positive motivations, in fact, in my relationships, it should be. Nuturing has way more milage than dictating with most human beings in my opinion, although a balance of the two is probably more likely to be received favorably by many that I have encountered here.

You can use the lifestyle as your playground to mess with people if you want, that's your deal, but it really makes you miss the point in my opinion.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Plasticine)
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RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 2:44:16 PM   
Plasticine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

It seems apparent from your other thread that you have some odd belief that control is equal to manipulation and dishonesty and maybe your friend has that fallacy as well.


No.  The best way to control and manipulate is indeed through complete honesty. People in my sphere who operate on some other fallacy, are quick to have that challenged.  Thank You.

And Thank You all for the stimulating comments...

In answer to what type of interview requires preconditions.... a first one... in the middle of the night... when both parties live alone.  They were responsible preconditions and did not alter the intensity at all.  The conditions were hers and I felt that I would have no trouble operating under them.


< Message edited by Plasticine -- 6/17/2010 2:50:45 PM >

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RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 2:50:08 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

It seems apparent from your other thread that you have some odd belief that control is equal to manipulation and dishonesty and maybe your friend has that fallacy as well.


No.  The best way to control and manipulate is indeed through complete honesty. People in my sphere who operate on some other fallacy, are quick to have that challenged.  Thank You.

And Thank You all for the stimulating comments...



Nice try. You and I both know that won't work, don't we?

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 2:51:23 PM   
Plasticine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Nice try. You and I both know that won't work, don't we?


I have no idea what you mean. 

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RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 2:52:20 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Really?... I mean.. REALLY?

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

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RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 2:53:50 PM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
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Status: offline 		I won't be sticking around for the thug crew to do their dressing-down.  I asked a respectable question and got respectable answers.

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RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 2:55:02 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
Really?... I mean.. REALLY?
OK, it pains me to admit it, but I'm with plasticine on this. I also agree that the best way to control and manipulate is with the absolute truth. Did I miss a zig or a zag somewhere?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 2:56:55 PM   
laurell3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Nice try. You and I both know that won't work, don't we?


I have no idea what you mean. 



Manipulation and honesty? Again, you are missing the point. There is no need to manipulate at all if you are honest and the submissive in question is compatible. My motivation to follow is based on my desire to do almost anything to please him because of who he is, not because of what he says. Manipulation doesn't show me anything about who he is, other than he's dishonest. The need to please is already inherent, there is no necessity to force it with false antics.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 2:57:04 PM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline 		I'll also mention that the sub in question is on CM and reads this forum.  She could speak up at any moment if she wants to out me as an evil lying monster.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 2:59:49 PM   
laurell3


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Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

I'll also mention that the sub in question is on CM and reads this forum.  She could speak up at any moment if she wants to out me as an evil lying monster.


Yes well if you want her opinion, ask her. You asked us a general question, about clarification (ie: honesty about motivation), didn't you?

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 3:01:33 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Manipulation and honesty? Again, you are missing the point. There is no need to manipulate at all if you are honest and the submissive in question is compatible. My motivation to follow is based on my desire to do almost anything to please him because of who he is, not because of what he says. Manipulation doesn't show me anything about who he is, other than he's dishonest. The need to please is already inherent, there is no necessity to force it with false antics.
Ahhhh.. now I get it. In the sense that you define manipulation I agree.

For me, however, I manipulate Carol constantly... always with good intent and pretty much always with full disclosure. Just as you say, most frequently I manipulate her by saying, "This is what I want" and then she complies. I see that as manipulation just as surely as some sort of skull-duggery... in the end she was molded or her actions were modified or somesuch at my desire. It's just a broader interpretation of the word "manipulation".

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 3:02:46 PM   
Plasticine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Yes well if you want her opinion, ask her. You asked us a general question, about clarification (ie: honesty about motivation), didn't you?


And I have.  She was commenting to me how much more aware of her posture she feels now, and how well I read her.

I came here to ask other dominants about my methods.  Not because I was unsure whether it had been an effective session. 

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 3:12:48 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Well when it stops being sessions, methodology, manipulation and theories to you, you might start to see my point and possibly even learn about yourself in the process rather than insulating and observing. That's your deal, as I said, you're welcome to it, but it's sad and unlikely to garner much real knowlege in my opinion.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Plasticine)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 3:18:01 PM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline 		There is an impossibility on this forum: Using terms that everyone agrees to.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 3:28:06 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Jeff, I have to disagree with your definition of "manipulation", much as I hate semantic games. If you give Carol a direct order, that is giving her an order. You might have some less obvious motive, but it's still an order. Manipulation is making someone do something other than they THOUGHT they were doing. If you ordered Carol to do something that looked like it was for you, but that action caused harm to someone else, so she was doing your "dirty work"--THAT Is manipulation.

***and that was an EXAMPLE, I would never imply that Jeff would do anything less than above board, and certainly not to harm Carol or anyone!

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



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RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 3:37:33 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		the way i see it is that if he'd told her flat out at the start she would have been even more self concious about herself and the whole point of the thing would have been lost.  in that regard i think the manipulation served them both very well.

i think that if manipulation is used intelligently in order to achieve a result that would not be as 'pure' if it were all explained before hand then it has its place.

explaining afterwards why was also effective.  she was able to see that without being self concious she could walk tall in high heels.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 3:51:58 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		LH:

If you look in the dictionary, you will see that "manipulation" is defined both ways... simplistically:

a) to manage or utilize skillfully
b) to control or to play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

It is certainly true that in common usage, the second of these is commonly meant but the first is also true. My example of giving Carol a direct order qualifies under the first definition... when you consider the bigger picture. It isn't so much the command itself it's the entire structure I've "managed skillfully" which makes the elegantly simple device of "command" work out. For me, this is all a part of being brutally honest with myself in an effort to accept appropriate responsibility for the results of my actions. It is a necessary part (in my mind) of being charismatic/dominant/influential/whatever it is that I am.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 4:23:26 PM   
KariCloud


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

For Carol and I though, whether a command is for my benefit or hers would be totally irrelevant. It is a command. She obeys or she is released. Whether or not my motivation for a command resonates with her or not the expectation of absolute obedience remains.


I would expect similar too, honestly, in terms of absolute obedience regardless of whether the reason is given or not, or agreed with or not. If things get wishy-washy there, I get confused and stuck and don't know how to react. Not a good thing, for anyone involved. If I tie myself up (figuratively) trying to second-guess my partner's actual intentions and whether what is being asked of me is for the best or not, I might as well toss my collar away and give up because I won't get anywhere that way. My intelligence aside, the idea of submitting to someone is that I do NOT get to overrule that person's will. I do react differently though, if I know it's a command that is exclusively for my benefit rather than for "us" or my partner(s) or others. It isn't that I'd feel any less need or desire to obey, just my own awkward self-consciousness getting in the way.


(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 40
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