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RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 4:25:19 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

LH:

If you look in the dictionary, you will see that "manipulation" is defined both ways... simplistically:

a) to manage or utilize skillfully


See! THIS is why I both studied linguistics, love English, and HATE SEMANTIC shit! Connotation/denotation!!

To me, that first "manipulate" implies tool use, like a scalpel or some such.

Language! LOVE IT!!


_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 4:28:20 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, however we aren't talking about an established dynamic with history. How did you or Carol get to the point of that trust? Was it because someone played hidden agenda games and remained distant and aloof?

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to KariCloud)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 4:30:42 PM   
bootybug


Posts: 1
Joined: 6/17/2010
Status: offline 		hey

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 4:39:32 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Well, again LH, I'm pretty well aware that normally the word "manipulate" implies sinister motives. And who knows, without me actually going down to the library and getting a much larger dictionary, maybe I'm wrong and it always implies sinister motives and devious means. What I do know is that am extremely effective in shaping the world around me and I wanted to look that square on without shirking responsibility. It's the same reason I stopped thinking in terms of Carol "consenting". I don't think she actually had much "choice" and I'd rather be very clear about who is responsible for whatever comes of us... better or worse.

laurell3
It's because of my stunning intellect, sparkling wit and charm, and incredible good looks. She was helpless putty in my hands. Oh yeah, the fact that I have made it my life's work to make her life wonderful might've contributed somewhat also.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 4:44:05 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Bonus points to Jeff, Hardworking Dom!

As far as "consent" goes, a person says "yes" to me ONCE. After that... well, I am not into constantly checking back to see who's following.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 4:45:23 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, well that's my point Jeff, there's a place for manipulation I suppose, although I disagree that giving an order and expecting it to be followed without question is manipulation. There's a place for that as well and I agree it's attractive and stimulating in an existing dynamic. The way you get there is by showing yourself and you won't do that through manipulation in my opinion. As I said earlier, I follow him blindly because of WHO he is, not because of what he says. I know who he is because he let me see it, all of it without deceit, manipulation or antics.

She obviously knows that you went out of your way to improve her life. Thus the original question is answered. Displaying your positive motives not only was successful, it fostered your relationship. Correct?


Then again, it seems apparent from my experience that there are those that do look to serve the stereotype and become disillusioned by reality and humanity. I'm not sure there's much stability in that, but it does exist without a doubt.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 6/17/2010 4:48:45 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 7:36:37 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Michael, of course I like making him hot. When my previous Dominant assigned a different noise to twisting each nipple in each direction, and then used my nipples to play theme songs from his favorite TV shows, I doubt that he would have said that his primarily motivation was "what's best for the relationship." If he or my former Master said, "I'm only doing this because it's best for you," I'd be surprised if it wasn't followed by something along the lines of, "So bend over, and I'll introduce you to the Board of Education, young lady!" with a gleam in his eye.

Laurell, people are hypersensitive about the use of "manipulation" and "testing" here, IMHO. I didn't have the impression that Plasticine was lying or being dishonest to the submissive, but choosing the timing to explain his reasoning to have the best possible effect. Shortly after I started dating my previous Master, the subject of manipulation came up (in response to something I'd read here on the forums). I was worried that I was inadvertently coming across all wrong, and came to him on the verge of tears. He grabbed my wrists and started twisting my arms in different directions. In a sing-song chant, he teased me, "I'm manipulating yooooooou!" I'd been very honest about my reasons for needing to learn the things in question, and he didn't have any problem with my behaviour.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 8:20:05 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		I don't believe I said that at all, I did in fact quote the post I was referring to. I agree, had he disclosed the actual motivation behind this scene it wouldn't have worked at all. However, clearly, I'm not discussing that in my posts. You may believe that your definition isn't "hypersensitive." I however believe that my relationships are based on trust and honesty. That also isn't the point.

The point is, do you think disclosing the positive motivation behind the exercise was appropriate? My response is yes, clearly my opinion is that d/s dynamics for me tend to be much more likely to succeed with honesty and vulnerability on both sides. You're welcome to have whatever opinion or relationships or illusions you want however.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 6/17/2010 8:24:33 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/17/2010 10:11:31 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Manipulation is something I do often for diverse reasons. I manipulate various tools including inks, paints, quills (aye the read deal) and brushes when i am designing a piece of calligraphy and illumination for the page. This is also called design and design modifications to fit the required available space. When I first make a Damascus steel billet folding and refolding the various iron types and adding elements (chemicals) to produce the modern copy of this beautiful steel. Then heating and stretching , hammering and working this lump of metal into a medieval sword blade capable of genuine combat, I am manipulating all the elements involved until the end result is as I desire it and add the custom cast bronze sword furniture and wooden handle. I manipulate our dogs when they are unresponsive to "want" to do as I ask of them with rewards. I have have manipulated someone close to me who is terrifies of needles and yet wants a tattoo to allow me to restrain and blindfold her and start a small needle play session on the upper area of her breast so she becomes used to the sensation and thus hopefully dispelling some if not most of her fear.  She knew what I was doing but her implicit trust in me was sufficient to allow me to try this for her own ultimate benefit. Yes I benefited too by the experience of working on my lover and wife.  These them my friends are examples of beneficial and non tacky or negative manipulations.

I have done other what we could refer to as negative manipulations as I was well trained in the US to use to help speed the downfall of enemies of the State. Most of these are not very nice and do not bare listing here. IYT has been a casae of suspending my mortality because according to my code of conduct (ethics), I was duty bound to accomplish this (Bushido students should be able to work this one out). All I will say is that not all manipulations are negative or destructive and some even great works of beauty or wonder. Manipulation is after all a tool to be used for a means to an end as is the camera or pen/quill no more and no less. It's efficiency and effectivenmess is dependant on the user alone.



_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/18/2010 5:55:36 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Michael, of course I like making him hot. When my previous Dominant assigned a different noise to twisting each nipple in each direction, and then used my nipples to play theme songs from his favorite TV shows, I doubt that he would have said that his primarily motivation was "what's best for the relationship." If he or my former Master said, "I'm only doing this because it's best for you," I'd be surprised if it wasn't followed by something along the lines of, "So bend over, and I'll introduce you to the Board of Education, young lady!" with a gleam in his eye.

Laurell, people are hypersensitive about the use of "manipulation" and "testing" here, IMHO. I didn't have the impression that Plasticine was lying or being dishonest to the submissive, but choosing the timing to explain his reasoning to have the best possible effect. Shortly after I started dating my previous Master, the subject of manipulation came up (in response to something I'd read here on the forums). I was worried that I was inadvertently coming across all wrong, and came to him on the verge of tears. He grabbed my wrists and started twisting my arms in different directions. In a sing-song chant, he teased me, "I'm manipulating yooooooou!" I'd been very honest about my reasons for needing to learn the things in question, and he didn't have any problem with my behaviour.

I've manipulated people in the past and I'm sure I will again. For the most part, around 90 something percent..It's been with "good" intentions. The other 10 or so percent was and is for sadistic fun..I can't help my wittle self..People are so easy to tweak..The most fun is when I tweak those who think they are tweaking me. (WEG)

On a more serious note...It happens on a regular basis and nobody, no matter what they think has a 100% "totally honest relationship". Anyone who believes they do is delusional. Some of us need to believe that so we can rest better at night. I am not one of them.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/18/2010 6:57:00 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		I often say there is a fine line between intervention and manipulation.

I stand by that.

I think you did something lovely for someone, plasticine. You gave her a mirror. Not many people do that. What a good gift!

Best,
sunshine




_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/18/2010 7:21:39 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

I often say there is a fine line between intervention and manipulation.

I cross that line when it suits me to do so.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/18/2010 11:05:15 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		There is a difference between this and a Master determining that the slave doesn't need to know but instead simply needs to obey.

In this case, it was wise of you to explain yourself because it benefited the situation. However, if you decide to own her and you become M/s then there may very well be times she doens't GET her questions answered. Its simply because 1) its none of her business or 2) yu don't feel it would benefit her to know, or 3) you simply don't wish to explain your motives or your plans for her at all or just yet.

Yeah those are sometimes things a Master has to determine. Most slaves are intelligent, as are most Men who are Masters. However, the dynamic doesn't mean that the slave always gets told what she wants to know or gets her questions answered. Its okay. Its many times the sucky part of being a slave.

I know many people try and use the excuse of well this and that and the other, because they are trying to manipulate the Man into telling them what they want to know, but in the end, it simply comes down to his decision. She either deals with it or she takes her happy ass and finds someone who will explain himself to her all the time.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/18/2010 11:25:14 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		also...., manipulation is a two way street - women do it all of the time, sorry but we do! - we want something a certain way we respond more favourably to one thing and not so much to another.  if we think we need something else we're more than capable of sending that vibe out.  i do it all the time, not in a bad way just that i find body language and little suggestion quietly worded can work wonders - of course its down to them if they take it up or not and they may see right through us, but being a sub or slave who isnt always given the freedom to choose for themselves, inuendo and subtle prompting is what we're quite good at.

bitch slap me if you like

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/18/2010 1:18:45 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

bitch slap me if you like


You betcha


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/18/2010 2:12:25 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

bitch slap me if you like


You betcha



  missed! 

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Explaining your motives. - 6/18/2010 4:04:46 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

missed!

Look at those things go!


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 57
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