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Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 11:37:12 AM

mistoferin

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The other day I was conversing with a woman who identifies as a slave. Her Master identifies one of his kinks as pro-ana. (not for himself, just for his slaves) There are two slaves in the household. Her take is that she consented to be in this relationship so therefore she consents to abide by her Master's rules. Easy enough to understand.

Both she and her sister slave are allowed 1/2 cup of cooked rice per day and one day per week they are allowed one piece of chicken. She is 20, not sure how old her sister is. She claims to be 5ft 7 and says that her weight is now 67 lbs. She says that she stopped menstruating 6 months ago and has been hospitalized 3 times in the last 6 months. She says that she is very weak but is happy because her weight is pleasing her Master, so she will continue. Her biggest complaint is that her family is (understandably) very upset and that is causing friction.

Ok, so that's the backstory that led me to ask the question. Obviously, I think that this is a very unhealthy situation. I am all for adults being able to make their own choices though, so long as they are mentally capable of making those choices.

What I am asking here is, not so much for commentary on that scenario...but do you view pro-ana and/or pro-mia as what you would consider to be kinks? Do those things have a place (in your mind) under the umbrella of BDSM?

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 11:56:08 AM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
What I am asking here is, not so much for commentary on that scenario...but do you view pro-ana and/or pro-mia as what you would consider to be kinks?

Certainly. Snuff, cannibalism and sex with the underaged can also be considered kinks.

quote:

Do those things have a place (in your mind) under the umbrella of BDSM?

No, unless they can be played out in a strictly fantasy scenario that does not cause actual harm and involves only consenting adults. What you are describing definitely does not meet those criteria.

If acting out on your kink ends up with your partner in the hospital....not once but repeatedly....at this point you're not under any umbrella at all, other than the attention of legal authorities. Which you will most assuredly deserve.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 11:58:22 AM

leadership527

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What LNT said.

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Post #: 3

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 12:03:07 PM

FelineFae

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Very sad.

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Post #: 4

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 12:03:23 PM

IronBear

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I agree with LNT

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Post #: 5

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 12:15:03 PM

lally2

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is he ready for the manslaughter suit when her system finally breaks down from malnutrition.

- or would that be murder - do they get any fruit and veg, is he ready for the dental bill when her teeth fall out - then theres brain damage, osteoporosis, kidney failure, damaged intestines, hair loss, memory loss, heart problems and so on and on and on - is he ready for the medical bill, i hope he's got her medicare well paid up.

i dont even want to think that this has anything to do with BDSM - its too bloody stupid

< Message edited by lally2 -- 6/17/2010 12:22:54 PM >

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So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 12:15:39 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
Your dominant Personal Trainer for fitness and body shaping in the lifestyle. Let my fetish be your motivation.

I quoted that, not to pick on you, but because it highlights such amazing differences in people's opinions. On another thread where I mentioned "forced" anorexia, another poster responded that she would view that person as a "personal trainer". Yet in your tag line you refer to yourself as a personal trainer AND state a fetish for changing body types...and yet your opinion of this end of the spectrum differs greatly. I find it fascinating how we all view things so differently at times.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LadyNTrainer)

Post #: 7

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 12:22:38 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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I'm not sure if I'll stay as hard lined on this as I feel now

But you either own your body or you don't.

And to add, I see TONS more dysfunctional masochists using their kinks to escape and avoid the real issue and continue self harm than I do anorexics. It's simply not as directly physical or obvious.

I really don't see a difference between this and allowing someone to smoke cigarettes.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 8

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 12:30:45 PM

LadyPact

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I love to see you posting here again, mistoferin, but what a sad thing.

I'm with LNT on this. Very much as I said on the thread yesterday. Anybody can call anything a kink. I'm not especially sure that means they get a free pass when it comes to harming someone.

If this gal really is 67lbs and has made it to the hospital three times in the last six months, I'm surprised that the medical personnel didn't intervene. I don't know how someone didn't pay attention.

I'm sorry, erin. I'm at a complete loss on this. I would have to think that a human life has priority here.

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(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 9

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 12:41:02 PM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
.If this gal really is 67lbs and has made it to the hospital three times in the last six months, I'm surprised that the medical personnel didn't intervene. I don't know how someone didn't pay attention.

.

im not sure if they can intervene, if you refuse medical follow up or anything remotely like that, and i would imagine this asshat of a twat (i refuse to call him a Dominant) would not allow it and would not allow her to accept it.

so what is this actually do you suppose, some sort of power game gone nuts, 'lets see how close to death i can get this girl' - its just the saddest thing and much of this anorexia is all about low self esteem and creates low self esteem also, so its an appalling cycle that feeds into itself. even if she doesnt stay with this moron her health and ability to have kids later is going to be seriously compromised and health issues are going to dog her for the rest of her life.

i just dont see how we can sidle up to this and say its OK and within the province of BDSM

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 10

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 12:46:16 PM

TheRaptorJesus

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Joined: 6/3/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'm not sure if I'll stay as hard lined on this as I feel now

But you either own your body or you don't.

And to add, I see TONS more dysfunctional masochists using their kinks to escape and avoid the real issue and continue self harm than I do anorexics. It's simply not as directly physical or obvious.

I really don't see a difference between this and allowing someone to smoke cigarettes.

That's because you have a moronic sense of what I can only assume is personal-pragmatism where you think you see the world in some equitable terms.

This is completely moronic. The people in question in the OP are idiots. Anyone who approves of the scenario is a fool.

No one OWNS anyone. Christ.

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Post #: 11

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 12:47:02 PM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I quoted that, not to pick on you, but because it highlights such amazing differences in people's opinions. On another thread where I mentioned "forced" anorexia, another poster responded that she would view that person as a "personal trainer". Yet in your tag line you refer to yourself as a personal trainer AND state a fetish for changing body types...and yet your opinion of this end of the spectrum differs greatly. I find it fascinating how we all view things so differently at times.

My opinion comes more from the health professional end of the spectrum than the kinky one. The health professional view on extreme diets that increase rather than decrease morbidity and mortality and have substantially negative effects on renal, cardiovascular and general health is fairly well established.

I may consider revising my tagline, because it is not intended to convey that I have a personal fetish for changing people's body types. I do not. I have worked with transgenders and their health and body reshaping concerns, with skinny ectomorphs needing to be bigger, with obese and disabled people facing substantial challenges in healthy and effective fat loss. There isn't a one size fits all program. I use the fetishes I do have, and more importantly the fetishes they have, to help motivate them to be the best and healthiest person they can be. Not necessarily what I might selfishly want them to be, but what they most need to be - fitter, healthier and more whole, and finally at peace with themselves and their bodies.

Their end goals and how they get there are likely to be quite different. My job is not to force them into a mold to my specifications, but to make sure they are well motivated to achieve their own. Kinky rewards and punishments are amazing for achieving that, and there have been a number of success stories. I'm pleased and proud when I can genuinely make a difference in a client's life and health, and in how they feel about themselves and their bodies.

For the purists among you, this means I am a professional service top when I am functioning as a personal trainer, not being a Twue Dom. Twue Doms can starve their slaves to death if they want to, I suppose, at least until they end up in jail for it. Then they may continue attempting to be Twue Doms to large and opportunistically homosexual cellmates, as this is a likely outcome of the scenario as described.

_____________________________

Your dominant Personal Trainer for fitness and body shaping in the lifestyle. Let my fetish be your motivation.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 12

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 12:47:22 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

What I am asking here is, not so much for commentary on that scenario...but do you view pro-ana and/or pro-mia as what you would consider to be kinks? Do those things have a place (in your mind) under the umbrella of BDSM?

I think that they would potentially fit under the category of "authority-based", and -could- fit in the S/M end of BDSM, though I have to qualify that with some additional commentary which I'll add below. To me, I keep BDSM to the Bondage-Discipline-Sadism-Masochism end of things, and this scenario fits the sadism/masochism end from what I can see.

Personally, I find anorexia/bulimia to be indications of OCD-like behavior or, in some cases, part of the Body Dysmorphic Disorder group (similar to people who believe that they should be missing limbs -- in this case, at least for a couple of clients I've known over the years as a minister, it was that they didn't believe they should have flesh/muscle -- they honestly thought the most beautiful thing in the world was a thin layer of skin stretched tight over bones). However, people who are in this situation can be relatively functional, and as long as they are cognizant of the trade-offs of their decisions, they are entitled to do what they want with their bodies. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped (as is evidenced by the girls who are hospitalized due to complications of anorexia, and are forced into inpatient treatment for their anorexia/bulimia, gain enough weight to get out, and then go back to starving/purging to get back to where they were, even knowing that it nearly killed them the last time).

One other challenge that I have with this scenario is that, over time, individuals who are malnourished stop being able to make rational decisions. This is one of the theories surrounding the causes of Stockholm Syndrome -- so I think I'd be sort of squidgy, ethically, if I saw this going on in my community, and would want to have a professional evaluate the situation... then, if it turned out that everyone involved was really fully committed, well, that's up to them, as cognizant adults.

Calla

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(in reply to mistoferin)

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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 1:10:39 PM

mistoferin

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Well, the interesting thing that I found in speaking with her is that this is not something that is being fueled by something within her, the weight loss that is. Her only motivator here seems to be her desire to please him. In fact, she said that she thinks her weight now makes her look very sick. She said that they have been together for just over a year and prior to that she had no history of any eating disorder and weighed 145 when she met him. So it would seem to me that a lot of the common mindset found in anorexia is not there. I honestly don't know how you could convince yourself to override the body and mind's natural sense of self preservation, which I figure has to be screaming pretty loudy at this point in her...although I don't know that for sure.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 14

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 1:23:02 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Well, the interesting thing that I found in speaking with her is that this is not something that is being fueled by something within her, the weight loss that is. Her only motivator here seems to be her desire to please him. In fact, she said that she thinks her weight now makes her look very sick. She said that they have been together for just over a year and prior to that she had no history of any eating disorder and weighed 145 when she met him. So it would seem to me that a lot of the common mindset found in anorexia is not there. I honestly don't know how you could convince yourself to override the body and mind's natural sense of self preservation, which I figure has to be screaming pretty loudy at this point in her...although I don't know that for sure.

*nods* It's always kind of scary to me when I encounter someone who will destroy hirself just to stay in a relationship, but I've also dealt, over the years, because of my ministerial background, with so many people who were abused in so many ways, but who, once we got them out of the abusive situation and got them safe, turned around and left and went back to their SigOther that I decided that it was another quirk of human behavior -- sometimes, we love being "loved" more than we love ourselves. It's sad, but it is, IMO, a choice that people have the right to make for themselves.

I hope these girls figure out that there is a -real- problem, before they end up paying for their need to be loved with their lives. I refer to the last paragraph of my earlier statement -- if they've been starved for a year, they may be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome or something like it, and may not be in a mental position to be able to make rational decisions any more. I hate to say it, but I would probably call one of my reference psychiatrists, clue hir in on the situation, and do what I could to get everyone in for an evaluation. Part of me even says that I would leverage it by letting the dominant party know that I would have no qualms about calling Social Services and the local police department if the group didn't come in voluntarily. If my colleagues decided they were all sane and able to consent, then I'd have no problem letting it go, but there are so many factors to consider here from a mental health and physiological standpoint that I'd feel compelled to make sure everyone was really ok with this.

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 6/17/2010 1:26:41 PM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to mistoferin)

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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 1:41:15 PM

mistoferin

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Well I do know that at least one of the hospitalizations was against her will and was initiated by her family, which is what has led to the friction that I was speaking of earlier. What she told me though was that she was given a mental evaluation and the hospital had no choice but to release her, although they did try very hard to get her to consent to stay and be treated. I also encouraged her to follow their suggestions and tried to get her to understand the consequences, long term, of her condition. It was an eery conversation and I kept getting the impression that I was speaking to a "Stepford Wife"...like there was this programming going on there. She had a very flat effect. This is not someone that I know on a personal level, rather she contacted me initially through email to which I responded with my phone number. If I knew her real name and location...to be really honest, I think I might try to contact someone in that area. She sent me a few pictures...before and after. It was very sad because the before pictures showed a beautiful young girl who was very obviously full of life....and the after or present day pictures told a very different story. But really...what are you to do? I offered her what I felt I could and will continue to talk with her if she continues to allow me to....but I have to admit that I am really rather worried that this will end badly and I really don't have any degree of control over that.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 16

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 2:07:53 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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It might.

But what about hunger strikes? Who are we to decide what another person can and cannot put their lives in danger for? What motives are acceptable and what are not?

Do we believe in "informed consent" and ownership of our bodies so long as it doesn't unwillingly harm another or don't we?

I see unhealthy shit happen at munches and parties all the time- newbies playing with three new tops at their first party and not one of them warning about possible drop, lying about being monogamous and cheating, leaping into collars with barely a second glance. Do I have the right to prevent them from making THEIR choices about THEIR lives?

Anorexia is just an easy target because it's so physically obvious and directly harmful.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 2:20:31 PM

LadyCimarron

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She is dying. She WILL die. (if this continues) And this is not something her Master is doing to her. This is something she is doing to herself. Ana-mia is not something you just pick up as a kink neither is it something someone does because they are a slave. She most likely already had or was prone to these issues and found someone who could help her justify it. Ana and mia are considered mental illnesses if she continues going into the hospital her family can have her committed by the doctors. Maybe it will save her life.

This is too sad for words.

< Message edited by LadyCimarron -- 6/17/2010 2:30:06 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 18

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 2:35:15 PM

porcelaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

its just the saddest thing and much of this anorexia is all about low self esteem and creates low self esteem also, so its an appalling cycle that feeds into itself.

You're wrong, it isn't the same. This is intentional and many people that are pro-ana or mia have already had medical intervention and may have been on the road to recovery. There's also another group that intentionally embraces this lifestyle, those that were never anorexic or bulimic at all but enjoy the control it provides. You're glimpsing it from the BDSM context, but it's very ritualized and the numbers are vast. It's merely rearing its head as a kink but it's been in the backdrop for a long time. They're merely at a point of comfort where they're open about it now. As disturbing as it might sound it is a choice. An intentional path towards emaciation that the practitioners have knowingly embraced with the knowledge of what can happen as a result of their decision.

~porcelaine

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His will; my fate.

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Post #: 19

RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/17/2010 2:40:07 PM

SocratesNot

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IMO, she is mentally incompetent - not necessarily in sense of mental retardation - but in sense of losing the ability to make rational decisions.
He is idiot who is taking advantage of this extremely sad situation and should be behind bars.

If I was around I would call the cops and forcefully send her in the hospital - and he would finish in jail.

I am not sure if the therapy would be successful or not - but I would at least try to help her.
When it comes to him - he should definitely be in jail for what he did, otherwise he will continue such pattern of behavior with other partners, I mean - victims.

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Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to LadyCimarron)

Post #: 20

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