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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/18/2010 5:51:45 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I have tried to cure eating disorders with a discipline regimen.  Got nowhere.  That's one nasty, sick habit.

If I ever met some idiot who actually fostered this in a sub, I'd haul off and sock him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Helping someone *overcome* a disorder would be impressive.


Yeah.  Been there, tried that, failed.




Hello Steven,
I deliberately put the word "helping". I think I wasn't clear in that I meant helping the person getting professional help, stick to the support system they would need (which would include you but for the tougher stuff would include other people trying to get well), maintaining healthy food in the home, supporting them in a healthy exercise regimine. I'm thinking of the person who would order no unhealthy food be in the home, sign the two of them up for dance classes (or rock climbing or join a softball league together), order the person to go to at least one OA meeting per week, require the person to journal about what's going on. It doesn't *fix* the problem, but it does support the person by creating an atmosphere in which they can *choose* to be well.

And by the way, that you recognized the disorder and were not pulled into it, seduced by it says a lot for you.

And yes, eating disorders are one of the most difficult to manage (not fix... just manage, overcome the harshest parts of).

As always, you are a wonderful Man.

Best,
sunshine

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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/18/2010 5:54:37 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Frankly, it is much more courageous to abide by one's own firm beliefs, even when that means taking a stand that results in such overtly hostile commentary than to knuckle under to pressure from the masses. It would be easy (and weak, IMO) to just nod and say "Oh, yeah, this is absolutely bad because everyone else says it's just awful" without considering all of the circumstances in play and considering the free will of the participants.

Calla



Normally, I read your posts with great interest and respect. I have learned a great deal about how successful poly households can work, and how much work needs to be put into it. This along with many other things.

Here, I'm sorry, but you are off the mark. It isn't courageous to stand by and accept an otherwise "healthy" person's decision to die or let someone kill them. It is plain and simple, cowardice. It is no different than walking away from a woman being brutalized by her spouse but refuses to leave.

When people make irrational decisions (or choices if you prefer), yes, society as a collective has determined right and wrong, competent and incompetent. Someone who isn't making rational decisions is no more capable of "consenting" than those precious animals used in Tantriq's example.

I guess those people who drank the kool aid in Jonestown made rational decisions and that others who get sucked into cults and need to be "deprogrammed" should be left alone because they "consented."

Calla,

You are a bright, thoughtful woman, but here you are so far off the mark regarding the concept of consensual behavior of adults it is frightening.


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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/18/2010 8:59:42 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

require the person to journal about what's going on. It doesn't *fix* the problem, but it does support the person by creating an atmosphere in which they can *choose* to be well.


They don't believe themselves to be sick. If they go too far they make adjustments unless that no longer matters. As for writing down her thoughts, that can have an adverse effect. The ugliness that comes forth can feed the addiction. It's like a pseudo cheerleader spurring her on.

I took the liberty of visiting the Pro-Ana group at Fetlife. For the most part the people there look relatively normal, and many of them are actively seeking relationships. Some are vehement about having that area of their lives controlled. I find them to be an interesting bunch but I think they're less militant than others I've encountered. They appear to be maintenance types that wish to keep a certain look and desire to use pro-ana/mia to make that possible. They aren't emaciated.

Then there's the other ones. Merc posted a link and I've been to that site in the past. That's the real deal. They go all out. We're really looking at two camps within the group. And the latter one is for hardcore enthusiasts that are fully committed. From a BDSM perspective the more extreme types aren't speaking about it in an open forum. It's too controversial. There was an individual on the Fetlife that many complained about. Having seen the profile myself it was understandable why they were offended. The imagery presented was shocking and grew progressively grotesque. It bothered me a lot.

Perhaps there's a lesson in all of this. Especially for those that seek to control a girl's food intake and fitness regime. Not for reasons of exploitation on the dominant end, but mostly due to what's going on inside her head. I believe it takes a special person to engage this behavior, but I also feel it can be unwittingly supported without the dominant's knowledge. Particularly if the girl looks relatively healthy and merely wants to lose a "few" pounds. For what it's worth many of the girls in that group didn't admit their condition to the dominant. And some were pretty hostile when he attempted to alter their actions.

This thread has given me much to consider. Thanks for sharing erin.

~porcelaine


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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 4:09:10 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		FR

"do you view pro-ana and/or pro-mia as what you would consider to be kinks? Do those things have a place (in your mind) under the umbrella of BDSM?"

To some it could be, for a while... and i can understand why
i am glad it is not my kink
(though i am required to adjust our diet and limit our portions somewhat since some weightloss is preferred at this time)

Also what other people do is their business, but if anybody i cared about would be involved in such an extreme relationship i would be very bothered about it.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 6:12:36 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Here, I'm sorry, but you are off the mark. It isn't courageous to stand by and accept an otherwise "healthy" person's decision to die or let someone kill them. It is plain and simple, cowardice. It is no different than walking away from a woman being brutalized by her spouse but refuses to leave.
I gather that you are not in favor of legalized suicide either? I have to tell you that I also don't agree with Dame Calla's black and white stance on this. I can, if I dig deep enough into my imagination, think of things that two consenting people could get up to that I would just plain not allow (meaning I'd be willing to support laws against). But simply killing oneself via starvation isn't going to make that list.

So fundamentally then what happens is I'm forced to think about where the line is. And what that means is that other people with differing viewpoints than my own are also thinking about where the line is. All of which makes this a very important and very difficult discussion. Let's remember that according to the society you're referencing so strongly, sadism is not allowed... we call it assault and battery and possibly also domestic violence. You do realize that S/m could also be reasonably viewed as consenting to torture, right?

I agree that society, as a whole, has a right to determine what it will allow as acceptable. I'd just like to be very, very careful where I draw those lines (and this from a non-kinky, non-sadist, really pretty vanilla in every sort of way kind of guy).

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 7:57:37 AM   
dovie


Posts: 1211
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

The other day I was conversing with a woman who identifies as a slave. Her Master identifies one of his kinks as pro-ana. (not for himself, just for his slaves) There are two slaves in the household. Her take is that she consented to be in this relationship so therefore she consents to abide by her Master's rules. Easy enough to understand.

Both she and her sister slave are allowed 1/2 cup of cooked rice per day and one day per week they are allowed one piece of chicken. She is 20, not sure how old her sister is. She claims to be 5ft 7 and says that her weight is now 67 lbs. She says that she stopped menstruating 6 months ago and has been hospitalized 3 times in the last 6 months. She says that she is very weak but is happy because her weight is pleasing her Master, so she will continue. Her biggest complaint is that her family is (understandably) very upset and that is causing friction.

Ok, so that's the backstory that led me to ask the question. Obviously, I think that this is a very unhealthy situation. I am all for adults being able to make their own choices though, so long as they are mentally capable of making those choices.

What I am asking here is, not so much for commentary on that scenario...but do you view pro-ana and/or pro-mia as what you would consider to be kinks? Do those things have a place (in your mind) under the umbrella of BDSM?


hiyas Erin...have to say, I had to google these phrases after reading them in this thread. Oh my goodness! eating disorders can be very difficult to treat.  Karen Carpenter comes to mind, the poster child for eating disorders. 

regards,
dovie

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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 9:47:20 AM   
SocratesNot


Posts: 812
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline 		Since the thread "pro-cancer and pro-AIDS as kinks" disappered, I will, once again state my opinion here.

I think that pro-anorexia is not much different from pro-cancer and if we accept the first we are not far from accepting the second.
Finally, my opinion is that BOTH pro-anorexia and pro-cancer can not and should not be accepted as kinks, and these practices should not be treated as a part of BDSM.
We should stop saying "to each their own" when it comes to things such as pro-anorexia and pro-cancer and we should openly oppose them.
If we are unable to physically prevent people from engaging in such activities, we should at least openly state our opposition to such practices.
We should stop calling it kink.  This is not kink, this is simply type of  terrible shit that some people do - if we can't prevent them - we should at least be able to freely state our disapproval and discourage others from engaging in such practices.


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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 9:51:16 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		OK.... Alert the mods.


You are a fucking RETARD! Time after time after time you post the dumbest shit I have ever read here. Think about that, it is no mean accomplishment. You refuse to accept anyone's explanation for anything out side your tiny world view.

You are one fucked up mother fucker.



I believe this post will be deducted form my total..:)

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 9:52:54 AM   
VideoAdminAlpha


Posts: 3876
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

OK.... Alert the mods.


You are a fucking RETARD! Time after time after time you post the dumbest shit I have ever read here. Think about that, it is no mean accomplishment. You refuse to accept anyone's explanation for anything out side your tiny world view.

You are one fucked up mother fucker.



I believe this post will be deducted form my total..:)

The mods are alerted. (How does it feel to be wrong every once in a while? )

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 9:54:14 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Really?.... I was willing to give it up just to get it out there.


cool...lol

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 10:00:29 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		i wondered how long it would be

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 10:04:40 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline 		I think part of the difficulty and complexity in this depends on the underlying issues that cause anorectic behaviors to manifest in a particular person. Oftentimes, the distorted body-image issues are themselves symptomatic of a deeper problem, and sometimes, the body-image issues aren't distorted.

Some girls simply do not have the correct underlying bone structure to look good "thin", but have been convinced that only being "thin" can be pretty. So they starve themselves below their "healthy" weight, and then don't understand why they still don't look good. So they try to starve themselves more, because they clearly weren't trying hard enough - just a little more and they'll finally be "pretty". These girls can respond very well to therapy designed to reassert a healthy body-image.

Some girls do look good very, very thin, and want to be very, very thin, but have no idea about the underlying health concerns with being very, very thin. The best thing you can do for a girl like this is to help regulate their diet and exercise so that the anorectic behavior does not interfere with their long-term health. Models and ballerinas and gymnasts and cheerleaders do this all the time, and saying that it's okay when they do it but not okay when an "average" girl does it propogates the double standard that causes so many anorexics to get sick in the first place.

Then there's the girls that combine self-loathing and a desperation for control and approval into a downward spiral of obsessive eating control. These people can respond well to D/s techniques designed to foster their need for control and reward quite well.

Mistake one set for one of the others, though, and you're gonna kill someone.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 10:06:40 AM   
VideoAdminAlpha


Posts: 3876
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		I will say it interrupted a morning with my granddaughters.........so........

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You can't please all the people all of the time.Unfortunately there are times you cannot please any of them :( You can only do your best, and hope they realize that.

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 10:21:50 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		As a part of this you see some women for example almost have a trompe l'oeil effect, where one part of their body, their face usually (due to their bone structure) will appear full and all the dieting and excercising  in the world will not change that. Some develop a specific type of body dysmorphoria because the one thing they see every time they look into the mirror is their face, and they are starving themselves while the rest of them is fading away.

Excellent post Ialdabaoth on succintly explaining that.

In my post I explored the possibility of 2 different possibile motivations on his end:
either the esthetics or the devotion of the act fulfilling his kink (or of course a combination of both).

Can you think of others?

edit: clarity/typo

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 6/19/2010 10:49:35 AM >

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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 10:26:58 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		i am glad you are still about and haven't wasted away snowflake

i can understand why people would 'play about' with this type of control,
but i am very glad i have no desires in that arena myself and i am quite happy that my Husband and me both have some flesh on our bones be it a tad too much. 
i have been extremely skinny for a while when i was young and when i see pictures of that time of myself i think i look very stressed and sad.

Hope you have a nice day Alpha

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 10:41:29 AM   
DarlingSavage


Posts: 2808
Joined: 9/18/2009
Status: offline 		I like being skinny.  However, I do have a set weight that is too thin for me.  67 lbs is way under that.  That girl in the OP at 67 lbs?  How does she stand up?  At that weight, she should be hospitalized.  If she made it to this weight, she's going to die if she doesn't get medical attention.  Especially at her height.  I'm surprised that her family hasn't had her hospitalized, if they were that concerned, they would.  With her being 67 lbs, her "master" wouldn't be able to stop them.  They could legally have her committed since it is obvious that she poses a threat to herself.  I'm no lawyer, but I think that's how that works.

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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 10:44:36 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Since the thread "pro-cancer and pro-AIDS as kinks" disappered, I will, once again state my opinion here.

I think that pro-anorexia is not much different from pro-cancer and if we accept the first we are not far from accepting the second.
Finally, my opinion is that BOTH pro-anorexia and pro-cancer can not and should not be accepted as kinks, and these practices should not be treated as a part of BDSM.
We should stop saying "to each their own" when it comes to things such as pro-anorexia and pro-cancer and we should openly oppose them.
If we are unable to physically prevent people from engaging in such activities, we should at least openly state our opposition to such practices.
We should stop calling it kink.  This is not kink, this is simply type of  terrible shit that some people do - if we can't prevent them - we should at least be able to freely state our disapproval and discourage others from engaging in such practices.



SNot... the reason the likes of Jeffff and I get so irritated by your posts, is that you're either stating the fucking obvious (as above) or bandying about nonsensical propositions and factoids.

I happen agree with you here - there are clear similarities between pro-anorexia and pro-cancer... indeed those similarities would be obvious to a seven year old (provided they knew what the acronyms actually meant). It's that fucking obviousness, that annoys me about this.

I don't agree that these could not be kinks - of course they can... pretty much anything can be a kink.

I do agree that they shouldn't be allowed -> there are some nasty nasty "kinks" that are definitely "kinks" which ought to be illegal.

Now... if you want to have an intelligent discussion -- why don't we talk about "where do you draw the line" - That one would produce some nice thoughtful debate, and probably plenty of controversy... But you don't appear to consider your posts before you make them, and they often come across as crass or nonsensical.


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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 10:46:47 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
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Status: offline 		I fucking love anteaters, they rock.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 10:51:59 AM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I don't agree that these could not be kinks - of course they can... pretty much anything can be a kink.

I do agree that they shouldn't be allowed -> there are some nasty nasty "kinks" that are definitely "kinks" which ought to be illegal.



I have a question ..... who would do the allowing or not allowing Crazyml? 

For some things such as knowingly practicing unsafe behaviours if you have HIV there are legal ramifications but what about someone who is a feeder or into encourages anorectic behaviours? 

And where is the line drawn?  A person that wants their s type to weigh 100 kilos is ok but one who wants them to weigh 200 kilos is not? (or to reverse it 70 kilos vs 35 kilos)

I just don't know how these kinks could be policed and that is where the struggle would be in my opinion.

edited to make it clearer

eta ....ahhhh shit...and yes, I saw you asked the where to draw the line question mea culpa


< Message edited by wandersalone -- 6/19/2010 10:54:07 AM >

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RE: Pro-ana and pro-mia as kinks - 6/19/2010 11:01:31 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I did get to see the other thread, actually I was formulating a response to it when it got pulled. Wow! Not sure if I should be pissed off or flattered here. I will say this. A note informing me of your intention would have been nice.

I think that if you had gone about it a different way it may have generated a lot more thought of the issue, which would have been great. Instead, you chose a method that alienated a lot of folks to the point that your message here was lost to them, which is a shame because actually...your correlation was good. I am sure that it may have had the ability to get a few people really thinking about the issue who might not be able to otherwise relate to an eating disorder.

In the future if you would like to use something that I have written in such a manner...please give me enough respect to at least contact me first.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 6/19/2010 11:46:05 AM >

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