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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 10:33:25 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But i do prefer George Burns.

Ah.... but does Mr Burns have his own facebook page for god?
Mr Freeman does...

the.dark.

considering how long he has been dead and this is a thread about Atheism....ooo...gotta let this one go...(bites tongue)

Yep....Cuz right now there are worms coming out of his mouth.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 10:38:27 AM

juliaoceania

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fast reply...

as an agnostic I will post this ... I neither believe nor disbelieve it

quote:

Gödel's ontological proof is a formal argument for God's existence by the mathematician Kurt Gödel. It is in a line of development that goes back to Anselm of Canterbury. St. Anselm's ontological argument, in its most succinct form, is as follows: "God, by definition, is that for which no greater can be conceived. God exists in the understanding. If God exists in the understanding, we could imagine Him to be greater by existing in reality. Therefore, God must exist." A more elaborate version was given by Gottfried Leibniz; this is the version that Gödel studied and attempted to clarify with his ontological argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_ontological_proof

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 10:44:31 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

MrFirm - I hope I don't seem pedantic and I totally see where you are coming from (because you have faith).

However (awww... ya just knew there was a but...)

If a person doesn't like eggs, they say, I don't like eggs. Not - I don't believe I don't like eggs. No proof or faith required.
Personally, I have never had an atheist say to me, I don't believe there is a god - but they do say - there is no god. No proof or faith required.
It's not a belief (in that sense).

Belief and disbelief are not the same - they are antonyms. But they are both convictions.

the.dark,

Not pedantic at all. Actually, a deeper thinker than most.

I see your point, but would counter it with this thought: Have you ever tasted eggs in one place, and then another, and not have them taste the same? Or had them prepared one way, and found them distasteful, yet normally you like them?

You are operating on belief: the belief that the eggs that you tasted and didn't like one day, will taste just as bad to you the next day. Probably true, but not definitely true.

Many a child growing up doesn't like a particular food, but when they mature and grow up, find that they like it as adults.

If they weren't willing to occasionally test their "belief" that they dislike that food, how would they ever find out how good it is as an adult?

You know, we are getting into epistemology again. If you are interested in some of the problems in talking about "knowing", "beliefs" and "facts", the wiki article on the subject is a good start.

Firm

PS I like the "conviction" thing. Just hope no one wants to look up its definition.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 10:49:41 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Firm you do have two separate criteria when you consider the amount of proof you needed to believe in God but demand much more to support your other beliefs.

You know that this is a fact. You are kind of a shit for not at least acknowledging it.

Actually, I have the same level of proof for both.

But that's another story, and I don't have the inclination or the time (nor, I suspect do you have the patience) for me to enumerate and explain a 20+ year odyssey of explanations to you.

I don't try to convert anyone. My arguments with atheists is about their closed minds, nothing more, nothing less.

Firm

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 10:50:28 AM

brainiacsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

So I'll give you the same opportunity that I've given three other atheistic posters.

Using short sentences and small words, explain to me what the atheistic argument is, exactly, and how I am "straw manning" it.

Firm

Here it is in a nutshell, Firm. I and Vincent have tried to explain this to you on two different occasions each, and each time you dismiss what we say and instead opt to debate the meanings of words - words which you and Treasure have repeatedly misused over and over. So let me make this real simple for you... short sentences, small words:

Julia posted a link to an article that was universally rejected as fantasy by the usual posters who prefer the scientific method to determine truth. A few other posters disagreed because the premise of the article made them "feel good." So be it, to each his own.

In typical Firm fashion, you defended this article by posting links of your own suggesting that "scientific scholars" are also entertaining the idea that science can provide evidence to validate the existence of a "soul," God," and an "afterlife."

Several atheists ridiculed your initial assertion, not because they ridicule your Faith, but because you constantly misuse science to try and validate your Faith. The atheists didn't buy your arguments. As usual, your claim turned what would have been a 2 page thread into 2 ten page threads that have done nothing more than debate the meanings of words.

Treasure threw out the first strawman by trying to tell me what I as an atheist believed, and she got it wrong. I, Vincent, GotSteel and others immediately jumped on this to correct her and thus the remainder of that thread was derailed so you and Treasure (and a couple others) could debate the meanings of "faith" and "belief."

GotSteel started this thread because he was frustrated by how often this tactic is used to derail almost every thread where religion is discussed.

I and Vincent (and many others) tried to point out to you in both threads that Faith is the antithesis of reason, and both systems are not equally valid for determining what is fact. You choose to counter by endlessly debating the definitions of "faith," "belief" and "fact" even after you have been repeatedly shown that you misuse the words for your own purposes.

So these semantic debates become the strawman that keep you from addressing the atheist objections to your arguments - that you continuously misuse logic, reason, and the scientific method to defend your Faith, as opposed to acknowledging that no evidence exists for your beliefs beyond your Faith (if it did, you would present it). There are acceptable arguments for defending Faith that don't include equating it with Reason. Too bad you can't think of any.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 10:50:48 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

(graphic deleted)

Now show me a picture of God.

How do you know that those are atoms?

Firm

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 10:52:42 AM

mnottertail

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But thats just another way of sucking into the vast black hole out there, atheists are going to say you are close minded and so we ain't even at a horse apiece, we are nowhere, and for all eternity never likely to be anywhere

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 10:53:30 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Show me God. You can't so I don't believe.

Have you ever seen a coelacanth? No? I guess you don't believe it exists, then?

How about an atom? Ever seen an atom? No? Must not exist, then, huh?

Are you really this dense?....Does "show" automatically equate to "see" or is it just one more fucking way for you to detract from the conversation at hand? What if a blind person asked to be shown something? Would you laugh at them?

You are awful. You are thick. You and treasure are pathetic.

You do have two separate modes of belief. The leniency of facts and proof that you so readily accept when it comes down to your belief in God would not begin to be tolerated by you in the other beliefs that you accept.

You are a liar and a fraud. you have been exposed. You don't care about the truth. It is why you are able to post the shit that you continually throw out here.

Should I go back and pull them up? You again prove that you are not worthy of my time.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 10:54:40 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

(graphic deleted)

Now show me a picture of God.

How do you know that those are atoms?

Firm

Fuck off.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 10:58:22 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

Julia posted a link to an article that was universally rejected as fantasy by the usual posters who prefer the scientific method to determine truth. A few other posters disagreed because the premise of the article made them "feel good." So be it, to each his own.

Honey, I know this is hard for you to grasp, but I never purported that the article I posted was "scientific" or more than "fantasy"... I know you have a hard time understanding that people like playing with ideas, enjoy thinking about the possibilities, but some of us do...

Now you can go back to your regularly scheduled insulting people of faith, because I am not one of those people I shouldn't care, but I can say when I see so-called scientific thinkers going after people who have a different worldview I think of that South Park episode where cartman is thrust into the future and the Atheists have won and they are warring with each other on "which science is stronger" and what they should all name themselves....

Since that episode (two part one actually) is hilarious.. Here is a link to it

http://www.southparkstuff.com/season_10/episode_1013/epi1013watchonline/

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/21/2010 11:13:13 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 11:05:30 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Show me God. You can't so I don't believe.

Have you ever seen a coelacanth? No? I guess you don't believe it exists, then?

How about an atom? Ever seen an atom? No? Must not exist, then, huh?

Are you really this dense?....Does "show" automatically equate to "see" or is it just one more fucking way for you to detract from the conversation at hand? What if a blind person asked to be shown something? Would you laugh at them?

You are awful. You are thick. You and treasure are pathetic.

You do have two separate modes of belief. The leniency of facts and proof that you so readily accept when it comes down to your belief in God would not begin to be tolerated by you in the other beliefs that you accept.

You are a liar and a fraud. you have been exposed. You don't care about the truth. It is why you are able to post the shit that you continually throw out here.

Should I go back and pull them up? You again prove that you are not worthy of my time.

I am going to recant my above statement....It takes a big man to admit when they are wrong.

You actually are that dense. You are right you do only possess one way to accept something as being the truth or real.

That is how you are able to swallow and post the shit that you do out here.

It is how you so readily accept as fact anything your conservative talking heads tell you to believe.

It is how you are able to bitch about the nickel levels in batteries of the prius.

It is how you are able to post about the religious beliefs of scientists and attach an article when if you actually took the time to read the article it invalidated your total argument.

You simply don't care. You will believe anything the "right and white" people tell you too. You didn't find those articles you posted...they were forwarded to you by your right wing fucko acquaintances. You accepted them as fact without doing a single thing to research their validity. Then you passed them on.

You are an older version of cuckoldmepls. Way to go.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 11:09:15 AM

brainiacsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Now show me a picture of God.

the.dark.

You fucking heathen. This is God.

ETA - Crap, my pic of George Burns didn't post.

< Message edited by brainiacsub -- 6/21/2010 11:10:18 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 11:11:22 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

There are acceptable arguments for defending Faith that don't include equating it with Reason

This may sound corny and child-like, but faith is in the heart of its owner.

Ask someone to explain their heart with reason and rational. Most cannot.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 11:23:02 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

There are acceptable arguments for defending Faith that don't include equating it with Reason
This may sound corny and child-like, but faith is in the heart of its owner.

Ask someone to explain their heart with reason and rational. Most cannot.

When you are right, you are right.

Holly you are 100% correct...Because so often it is not based on reason or rational thought.

Which is fine.

I don't think it is that big of a deal.

For some reason Firm can't wrap his little pea brain around this concept.

I ma not trying to be condescending at all, aside from the "pea head" comment, but you are right. The decision to participate in a religion is not based upon reason or rational thought.

It is a need to participate and be a part of something larger than yourself. It also allows you to participate in a larger community to make connections and to celebrate your faith. It also has a set of scriptures, life lessons and rules.

Some people really enjoy this type of structure and to participate within it's confines. Others do not.

But at the end of the day, it's participation is based upon throwing out reason and rational thought.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 11:31:49 AM

tazzygirl

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Its sorta like proving love exists, ya know?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 11:34:30 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

The decision to participate in a religion is not based upon reason or rational thought.

It is a need to participate and be a part of something larger than yourself. It also allows you to participate in a larger community to make connections and to celebrate your faith. It also has a set of scriptures, life lessons and rules.

Some people really enjoy this type of structure and to participate within it's confines. Others do not.

But at the end of the day, it's participation is based upon throwing out reason and rational thought.

Your belief that life should be based upon rational thought it ethnocentric... not that there is anything wrong with that, it is still based upon a specific set of cultural values that are rooted in Western Civilization...

I tend to think that meaning is just as important as rationality, since I have never met a really rational person, that makes sense to me...

Human beings are some of the most irrational muth fuckas ever to stand on two legs

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 11:35:29 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its sorta like proving love exists, ya know?

You'd have a hard time doing that in this forum, tazzy.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 11:39:39 AM

tazzygirl

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Just as hard a time as others would have of proving it doesnt exist.

See my point?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 11:42:58 AM

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Yep. It's a nice metaphor, but I just couldn't resist taking the piss given the amount of histrionic flaming matches we get in here.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 11:51:10 AM

brainiacsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

There are acceptable arguments for defending Faith that don't include equating it with Reason
This may sound corny and child-like, but faith is in the heart of its owner.

Ask someone to explain their heart with reason and rational. Most cannot.

You are exactly right and you have never claimed anything other than your belief is personal. I respect that, even if I don't share your belief.

Firm gets in to trouble out here because he claims to use the same logic and reason to justify his beliefs that the non-believers use to justify theirs. He is a hooker and a martini away from being an atheist - he just doesn't know it yet. Like most people, he needs "proof" or "evidence" that his beliefs are "true." He manufactures this evidence in his own mind by trying to apply reason to an unreasonable belief system. He will either continue to wage these battles on these boards and elseware till the end of his days, or he will eventually accept that no evidence exists and he will have to decide whether he continues to believe. Most of us atheists who were once ardently religious have been there.

You apply a different standard than Firm for accepting your beliefs. You admit that no evidence is required. Firm will never make such a claim. You two are cut from different cloths and I for one have no desire to debate the merits of your beliefs when you have stated they originate from within your heart. Go in peace.

ETA: I just read Domi's response to you (he beat me to it). It's more than just a coincidence that mine and his are nearly identical. It shows that atheists are not unreasonable and closed-minded when theists approach their belief from a position of intellectual honesty.

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